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How Far Can You Make Successful Kill Shots ?.

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I actually did something similar to this after shooting last month's postal match target. I set a Cambells Chunky Soup can on a stump and starting out at 50yds shooting my .50 Pedersoli Pennsylvainia flintlock began taking shots offhand and backing up 10 yds at a time til I missed. My maximum effective range on a soup can sized target was 120yds (5/6 hit) shooting offhand, at 130yds my accuracy was 3/5, at 150yds it was 1/7, at 170yds I fired 10 shots with no hits. I went back to the house and retrieved my shooting sticks for an experiment, walked back to the 150yd mark and standing off the sticks shot the can off the stump without fuss. After that I was too tired of all the walks down the range and back to set up the can again.

Chris
 
Brokennock said:
Unfortunately it can't be explained to someone who refuses to listen to anyone else. And gets offended when someone tries to explain something, then makes smart-@__ remarks.
Click to expand...
I am not offended at all. As far as smart remarks it is what it is, Life is too short to worry about anything said on a forum. It just does not mean that much to me. People getting together to voice their opinions and someone trying to tell them they are wrong? h-u-u--m-m-m. Nope, not my job to do that. Plenty of others that enjoy doing it.
 
While I agree with most of what has been said, it seems obvious to me that probably 80% of you are hunting Whitetail. With the wide open spaces and hunting Mule Deer I have certainly shot past that point. For sure at the extended range you better know your abilities. I would need a dead-rest, but I have a friend who could consistently kill a deer or "plate" at 150 yards or beyond all day long. He had the best gun that would group better than most and a gun is as important as the shooter. Most T.C. Hawkens certainly wouldn't make the cut. To me you just can't put everything in one bucket as say, "Here is how it should be".
 
64Springer said:
Good on you for using your hunting skills to help feed others.

These are great programs. It's nice that states will reimburse butchers who take the time to process the meat.

It's all a part of giving back and helping when you can.
Click to expand...
thank you for the kind words.
 
For those who really don't understand the concept behind "aim small, miss small," and can actually listen to understand, instead of listening just to reply.
This has a lot to do with margin of error.
How many of you have watched someone who can shoot bulls-eyes all day on paper struggle to hit a steel plate, or with a bow can shoot those paper bulls-eyes but struggle with a foam 3-D target at the same distance? Probably most of us have seen it and many of us have been, or are, that shooter.
If I have that shooter and I'm trying to help them I tell them to aim at a bullet splatter on the plate. They hit the plate. Why?
Because if you need to hit a 6" plate and aim at or focus on the whole plate and your off by even an inch, the plate is missed. If the shooter aims at a 1 inch spot near the middle of the 6 inch plate, even if they miss the bullet splatter by 2 inches, they still hit the plate. It doesn't matter why they missed the smaller spot within what they ultimately wanted to hit (at least not for the purposes of this exercise) it matters that they achieved the goal by focusing on a small part of that goal.
How many have read stories of a hunter shooting a big buck or bull in the antlers? Same principle applies,,,, they were so focused on the antlers they weren't aiming intensely at a small spot on the vitals. If one focuses on a small tuft of hair in the vital area of a game animal, and has an accuracy margin of error smaller than the total size of that vital area,,, one almost can't miss the vitals.
 
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Brokennock said:
Fantastic. So your margin of error in the field is the total size of what you need to hit. Brilliant.
And you can do it on a wide open range, even better. I'm sure there will be no obstructions, nice even terrain, and even lighting when that "maximum range" shot is needed.
Say one's margin of error is half that plate and determines 80 yards is their reliable maximum distance. At what distance can a stick large enough to deflect the ball 6 inches be seen? At what distance can shadows play with your ability to determine range, or if there is another animal directly behind the one you're shooting at? What is the angle of the shot? Is the shooter's position as steady as at the range?

There are a lot of factors that can and should go into one's maximum effective hunting range. And, maybe, that distance os or should be dynamic based on conditions at the time,,,, not how far one can kill a pie plate on a range.

"If you can get closer, get closer. If you can get more steady, get more steady." -Col. Jeff Cooper

"I like to hunt, before I pull the trigger." - (can't remember at the moment)
Click to expand...
I agree, kinda. We all know that here will always be obstacles, that's why sighting in is best done from a bench. But what I think DuncNC is saying that you just want to find the "ideal" if everything is right keeping in my that of course there will be less than ideal shooting situations.
Loyalist Dave said:
Excellent

For me, I think a paper plate is a bit too large, depending on what the hunter uses for "acceptable" criteria.

My 9" paper plate is actually larger when it's flat. (at least it seems that way)

IF I use such a plate, I'm using the embossed, interior circle. This, from what I've observed where I shoot, gives an excellent indication whether or not my rifle load is consistent enough and accurate enough. Shooting the tighter circle also I think allows for the variations in windage. Lastly it helps me to evaluate the max ranges for the stances that I might use.

My target range is down in a "holler", aka a hollow..., so is a lot of the deer hunting where I am, since the deer like the shelter of a depressed area between two ridges and such. So my range is similar to my hunting conditions, while others in other parts of the country might have different results. You need to tailor your shooting, I think.

There is a huge difference between my max effective range on a deer when I'm standing, unsupported in a field, than when I'm kneeling, or using a rest such as a tree trunk or a log. Also shooting at a white or black circle is much easier to get a good sight picture that's consistent, while shooting at the brownish/grayish side or shoulder of a deer is different, so for me shooting a smaller than 8" circle helps me to account for that problem too.

Mark Baker once said to Mel Gibson, "Aim small ; miss small" and that made it into The Patriot movie..., I think that's a good maxim.


View attachment 187647


My max shot is 100 yards. I killed ONE and only one deer at 110 yards, because I blew the range estimate, and thought the doe was only at 80 yards. Had I known she was past 100 I likely would not have fired, but the same "angel" that will whizz in your touch hole will also sometimes help out your shot, and the round went fine into the lungs and out the other side. No wounded deer that time <whew>. My common shot is at 50 yards or less. My closest shot was around 7 yards.

LD
Click to expand...
I usually use a cleaning patch at 100 yards.
 
Good advice for practice but I use 3" for 25 yds, 5" for 50 and 8" for 100. I bowhunt and do the same exercise with an 8" paper plate out to 50 and limit myself to whatever I can hit on the first shot with a primitive bow and arrow - no sights. Some years it is 30 yds, others 40. Last fall, muzzle loading harvest on a doe antelope was 15 yards. Open iron sights. Prefer those close in shots on relaxed animals.
 
I trad bow shooter mostly, longbow and primitive bows with stone tip arrows. Took a brown Bess carbine and put my limit at 40. That’s twice of my bow shooting. It was a great time and will probably never go back to regular guns. Love hunting in the buck skins, wools, and furs. The farms I have to hunt makes deer hunting east so challenging myself with primitive bows and flintlocks make’s hunting a challenge again. If I could only get my wife and son to understand that.
 
Brokennock said:
Unfortunately it can't be explained to someone who refuses to listen to anyone else. And gets offended when someone tries to explain something, then makes smart-@__ remarks.
Click to expand...
Hmmm... someone explained it to him; he indicated he understood the explanation; and thanked them for the info. Yeah, he put in a smart remark, but the fact is, someone made the effort to answer his question. You remind me of an instructor at a fire academy I ran many years ago who always complained about the “idiots in the seats who never pass”. After I replaced the problem at the front of the room, passing rates skyrocketed.
 
I have known many people who were great range shots but couldn't hit a deer and deer stalkers who couldn't shoot a bulls eye , also same with clays and ducks .
Kyron4 , A heart shot deer can run 150 or more yards , it depends on the species and the land scape and from what I have read on this forum there places where 50 yards could mean having someone else claim your deer .
It makes a big difference to flight distance if the deer is adrenalized, a stag which has been fighting another stag will be full of adrenaline and can cover considerable distances , one which is quietly resting or browsing may drop on the spot .
If you shoot at a deer and it jumps and kicks forward then runs off you have most likely heart shot it . You have to follow up further than you may think possible .
 
One of the most interesting articles that I've ever read on this subject can be found in Muzzle Blasts magazine, Volume 56-No.1,
September 1994. Author Paul Kelly describes a study/shoot he conducted at a Colorado clubs annual shoot using a deer sized target set at 171 yards in a hunting type setting. It included range estimation since none of the shooters knew the actual distance to the target. The author stated that almost all of the 114 participants were shooting open sights and round balls.
First they estimated the distance to the target; the average of the estimates was just shy of 210 yards with only two shooters guessing less than the acutal distance. The author stated that three of the shooters were adamant that they had shot deer at over 200 yards; their estimates of the distance were 285, 300 and 325 yards.
The broadside deer was printed on fairly large backerboard. The shots were taken; 82 shooters missed the deer with 42 of those not even hitting the backer. Only three of the shots hit in the heart/lung area. The author noted that all of the shooters that made "killing" shots said before hand that the distance was too far to shoot at an animal; he stated further that all of the shooters who thought the shot was reasonable missed.
The author stated that in further test shoots he came to the conclusion that the maximum ethical range (70% chance of a clean kill) for and average shooter is 75 yards and that for good shooters the range can extend to 100-120 yards.
Personally I believe that my longest game shot was 85 yards at a does head (that's all that I could see) back when I could see real good. In the 2021 season I made a 75+ yard kill shot on a small doe. I'm no longer sure that a 100 yard shot is going to be in my comfort zone.
 
I think the greatest limitation with shooting our primitive, iron sighted muzzleloaders at game much past 125 yards isn’t so much the that one of the larger caliber(ie 54/58 cal) LRB’s isn’t capable of hitting and killing a deer out to 200 yards with a well placed shot, but possessing the ability to determine the exact distance of the shot, and, having a sighting system which could enable precise shot placement in “typical hunting conditions”. While the 54/58 cals have as much energy at 200 yards as a 45/50cal at 100 yards, and could dispatch a deer at that distance, It would require a precise yardage to correct for the 4 foot elevation correction, not to mention a potential 3 foot windage correction(@10 mph). Lots of fun playing with targets at the range, but not suitable for most hunting conditions. IMO.
 
Fisherking said:
Does a “master” boast the ability or consider the possibility of learning something new?
Click to expand...
Well, not being a "master" of anything relating to ML's, I do not know. All I know is I learn something practically every day from different comments and perspectives. It does not mean i agree with them 100% but it gives me food for thought and makes me go back and think about my own views and opinions., and many times expands my understanding of the subject matter.
 
Brokennock said:
For those who really don't understand the concept behind "aim small, miss small," and can actually listen to understand, instead of listening just to reply.
This has a lot to do with margin of error.
How many of you have watched someone who can shoot bulls-eyes all day on paper struggle to hit a steel plate, or with a bow can shoot those paper bulls-eyes but struggle with a foam 3-D target at the same distance? Probably most of us have seen it and many of us have been, or are, that shooter.
If I have that shooter and I'm trying to help them I tell them to aim at a bullet splatter on the plate. They hit the plate. Why?
Because if you need to hit a 6" plate and aim at or focus on the whole plate and your off by even an inch, the plate is missed. If the shooter aims at a 1 inch spot near the middle of the 6 inch plate, even if they miss the bullet splatter by 2 inches, they still hit the plate. It doesn't matter why they missed the smaller spot within what they ultimately wanted to hit (at least not for the purposes of this exercise) it matters that they achieved the goal by focusing on a small part of that goal.
How many have read stories of a hunter shooting a big buck or bull in the antlers? Same principle applies,,,, they were so focused on the antlers they weren't aiming intensely at a small spot on the vitals. If one focuses on a small tuft of hair in the vital area of a game animal, and has an accuracy margin of error smaller than the total size of that vital area,,, one almost can't miss the vitals.
Click to expand...
Good explanation.

My friend that got me into bowhunting in the late 70's shot instinctive. To see him shoot paper wasn't very impressive, but he was one of the best meat shots I've seen.

On deer, probably other animals too, I think a lot of people get excited and fail to "pick a spot". If you don't have a "spot" to aim, you just as well be shooting clouds.

I've stated that I'd be comfortable taking a shot on deer at 50 yards off hand. That 50 yards would be in ideal conditions, not 50 yards in a thicket, nor 50 yards at a running deer. I'd like to think most here understand that a persons max range is in the right conditions. Only a fool would say I can kill a deer at xxxxxx distance anytime under any conditions.

A man has to know his limitations.
 
A bit dated, but one of the best training aids for shot placement I ever used was Bass Pro's Cyber Deer software. A real eye-opener when comes to shot placement. So much practice is based on broadside-shot targets. In my experience it's been more-often shots at different angles. The Cyber Deer program lets you "take a shot" then peel away layers to see the path of your bullet through skin, bone, and organs from various angles. Helps you visualize where to aim when facing head-on or various quartering shots. I also practice with cardboard silhouettes of deer torsos. No bullseyes to aim at. I have to visualize the path of the bullet from the point of impact of my aim. Anyways, works for me.
 
I’m 70 years old and a former Marine Expert Rifleman that has been shooting quite a lot for over 60 of those years. It is quite possible to accurately shoot long ranges with either iron sights or optics if you really know your rifles ballistics and practice regularly. If at all possible I use a rest be it a tree, a branch or whatever is available to steady my rifle. I’ve shot deer at out to 450 yds but for the last 30 years have hunted pretty much entirely with muzzleloaders and open sights limiting myself to 100yds or less although I know my 50 cal TC Hawken is capable of cleanly killing at a longer range. I‘d hate to wound a deer with a rifle and never have. Know your abilities and stay within them that is the ethical thing to do. Cotton
 
Cotton52 said:
I’m 70 years old and a former Marine Expert Rifleman that has been shooting quite a lot for over 60 of those years. It is quite possible to accurately shoot long ranges with either iron sights or optics if you really know your rifles ballistics and practice regularly. If at all possible I use a rest be it a tree, a branch or whatever is available to steady my rifle. I’ve shot deer at out to 450 yds but for the last 30 years have hunted pretty much entirely with muzzleloaders and open sights limiting myself to 100yds or less although I know my 50 cal TC Hawken is capable of cleanly killing at a longer range. I‘d hate to wound a deer with a rifle and never have. Know your abilities and stay within them that is the ethical thing to do. Cotton
Click to expand...
Semper Fi. What i could do then(71) I can't even come close to doing now! I'm pushing 73, and like it or not, I know what my capabilities are. Anything past 60yds max get a "pass" from me, because my eyesight with irons is fair at best. It is what it is. I don't like it, but I accept it.
 
I’m 75 and can’t see for squat!! So with open sights, 50 yards is best but I’m will to go to 75 yards but that’s it!! With a 12 power scope it depends on the cartridge and environmental factors like weather, shooting up or down hill etc.
Steve
 

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