Non-Firing replica 1766 Charleville Infantry Musket

tenngun said:

So why do they hold up. These guns were so crappy, that every time you shoot one ….none seem to fail

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You don’t know how many fail, do you?

What i can say is that these muskets are required to be proofed in Germany, the UK and in France with state markings and not all imported muskets pass their proof testing, those that fail are milled out in the breech and sold as decorations.

I’m not here to attest to those who choose to shoot them, but what I can say is they’re absolute junk when it comes to quality.

The locks are terrible, I’ve seen replica locks that work better.

The wood is tough to finish and rework, and it produces toxic dust.

You get what you pay for.

FYI, loyalist and veteran arms start at around 700-800 with shipping and tax and FFL fees here in NJ.

You can get a used navy arms Charleville for under $1,000 and those barrels are deep drilled 4150 heated treated steel.

Zapadach said:

I am not questioning your statement about examining various muskets, what I will say is this, I have examined the barrel on my musket inside and out very closely and there were no seams or lines or ridges or dents of any kind. The structural integrity of the barrel is sound. I have also pulled the breach plug before shooting it and after shooting it and thoroughly examined it each time and it was very sound. This is my experience with this imported musket.

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the tubing used to make the barrels is supposed to be seamless, so you shouldn’t see any seams, if you do see a seam, i would send it back.

In all the documented failures of Indian muskets I’ve seen, the barrels always unseamed from the breech or the muzzle.

I’ve heard enough stories from Bobby Hoyt and Paul Ackerman about Indian barrel failures, no need to mess around with them.

FlinterNick said:

the tubing used to make the barrels is supposed to be seamless, so you shouldn’t see any seams, if you do see a seam, i would send it back.

In all the documented failures of Indian muskets I’ve seen, the barrels always unseamed from the breech or the muzzle.

I’ve heard enough stories from Bobby Hoyt and Paul Ackerman about Indian barrel failures, no need to mess around with

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There seems to be so many more positive experiences with the known Indian musket companies such as Military Heritage and Loyalist Arms than there are negative ones. It seems these discussions are sort of like Ford verses Chevy. Many people feel they have had bad experiences with both car makers. Then there is the guy who has a Mercedes-Benz and believes unless you spend the money on one of his choosing everything else is garbage and those who buy them are less intelligent and are not experts like him.

maillemaker said:

Any of the firearms imported from India that were manufactured without a touch hole were manufactured as non-functional firearms. As I understand it, this is also true for the ones Veteran Arms sells.

You will have to decide for yourself if you are willing to take on the risk of using something as a firearm that was not manufactured to be a firearm. You will have no recourse with the manufacturer if anything goes wrong.

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These were indeed mfg. to be a firearm. You are making too big of a deal out of the "drill it yourself" touchhole. BTW, I'd challenge anyone to receive 'recourse' from some mfg. in India on any thing at all.

springfield art said:

These were indeed mfg. to be a firearm. You are making too big of a deal out of the "drill it yourself" touchhole. BTW, I'd challenge anyone to receive 'recourse' from some mfg. in India on any thing at all.

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springfield art said:

These were indeed mfg. to be a firearm. You are making too big of a deal out of the "drill it yourself" touchhole. BTW, I'd challenge anyone to receive 'recourse' from some mfg. in India on any thing at all.

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This is actually not true.

Call them up, ask them, they actually answer the phone too.

They will tell you they’re not intended to be firearms.

Zapadach said:

There seems to be so many more positive experiences with the known Indian musket companies such as Military Heritage and Loyalist Arms than there are negative ones. It seems these discussions are sort of like Ford verses Chevy. Many people feel they have had bad experiences with both car makers. Then there is the guy who has a Mercedes-Benz and believes unless you spend the money on one of his choosing everything else is garbage and those who buy them are less intelligent and are not experts like him.

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It depends who you speak with.

Ford vs. Chevy …. More like Ford vs. Tyco or Matchbox Cars.

FlinterNick said:

It depends who you speak with.

Ford vs. Chevy …. More like Ford vs. Tyco or Matchbox Cars.

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That's a good one, even though I don't agree. Shows what a glass of rum will do for you.

FlinterNick said:

You don’t know how many fail, do you?

What i can say is that these muskets are required to be proofed in Germany, the UK and in France with state markings and not all imported muskets pass their proof testing, those that fail are milled out in the breech and sold as decorations.

I’m not here to attest to those who choose to shoot them, but what I can say is they’re absolute junk when it comes to quality.

The locks are terrible, I’ve seen replica locks that work better.

The wood is tough to finish and rework, and it produces toxic dust.

You get what you pay for.

FYI, loyalist and veteran arms start at around 700-800 with shipping and tax and FFL fees here in NJ.

You can get a used navy arms Charleville for under $1,000 and those barrels are deep drilled 4150 heated treated steel.

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So how many fail?

Good you tube vid on a failing Indian made gun, whoops wasn’t a gun related failure
And a nice write up on fails

For me, the actual soundness of the guns were never in question.

It's all about standing behind the product you made for its intended purpose.

If it wasn't manufactured to be a firearm, the manufacturer won't stand behind it as a firearm. It might be built like a tank, doesn't matter to me.

tenngun said:

So how many fail?

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No I don’t however it’s not probable that all pass.

deerstalkert said:

might as well be arguing the merits of Blondes and Redheads!

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I like black heads. they are easier to squeeze.

What we have here....

Flint62Smoothie said:

Sir … that alleged assertion you post is just flat out WRONG! Please don’t give people the wrong idea …

If anything, the touch holes are not added from the factory that made them due to import laws and customs.

Although my collection now consists of custom ams, or those I have made myself, I have had some Indian made replicas in the past, matchlocks and flintlocks.

Yes, the flintlocks need a little bit of care and some locks can use lots of tuning. However the matchlocks I’ve had, 3 of them and the one I presently own … have been perfect!

I once took an Indian 75-caliber matchlock, made measurements to the 10,000th of an inch every inch down the barrel … and proofed it myself with a double charge and double ball load. No changes in the barrel measurements. That was a sweet shooter … until somebody offered me stupid money for it, so I sold it and upgraded to a custom one by Brian Anderson.

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Exactly right on the export factor. They cannot export it with a touch hole drilled. You can always proof it yourself before you go live fire on the range or reenactment.

FlinterNick said:

No I don’t however it’s not probable that all pass.

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You don’t have numbers because they aren’t there.
I understand where you’re coming from. I had the same prejudice against curry poppers, but I’ve been doing this since the 1970s, and remember when all this was said against CVA, and Miroku. I see post on this forum of how good those Miroku besses are and some are pretty proud of their ‘Mountain Rifles’
Your choice today for many muskets is custom or Indian, cause pedisoli doesn’t make one.
But more then that the Indian guns are as close to the originals then Perdisoli are, in some cases closer
Before I slapped down the money I went looking. I could not find one instance of an Indian gun barrel failure that wasn’t user error

All I can say is people love BAD press. They have their favorites and non-favorites. I've built over 200 guns, fixed, repaired, restored and made non-firing to firing guns from everywhere and every time period, including India. Now, In India, just as everywhere, you have your reliable manufacturers, and your garage manufacturers. The guns from Military Heritage are fine guns as far as India guns go. Once properly maintenance and vented, like all guns when used properly, are as safe as any other. I've also seen India guns from garage builders so bad the barrel had a seam down the center. I'd swear it was made from a water pipe, so I refused to touch it and told the owner so. I've seen Remington and Browning shotguns blow up due to improper use and care. I was standing next a fella who had a S&W .38sp revolver blow up. It was determined he was an inexperienced hand loader and double loaded his rounds with Red Dot. He wanted the pistol to be more powerful. All these where from MORON GUN OWNERS. I, personally, have never seen an India musket fail if properly used and maintained. Any gun, ANY GUN, will eventually fail if abused. Semper Fi.

PS. Yes, I do own one that I hang on my fireplace. And yes, I do take it down and shoot it. No, the barrel is not rusty. I antiqued it.

well folks, every rifle i build is ventless right up to the very last minute of the build. and being a Ojibwa "Indian" i suppose all my creations are Indian made junk!

Fifteen yrs. ago , took an Armisport musket , 1842 Percussion , had a fellow in northern Va. reline the barrel to .69 rifled for the massive .69 Lyman minnie ball. Gives me chills how well it shoots at 60 to 100 yds. The monster minnie makes noises between muzzle and target. More fun than I can describe. My only problem is , that the gun is too heavy for this old man to heft around to shoot offhand , any more. I'll use it on the range from a bench.

I like your post deerstalkert. I reckon I can say that as well, being part Powhatan/Algonquin Native American. Just a smidgen though. One of my grandfather's form the early 1700's married a Native American woman from that tribe. I come from that blood line. Here's a pic of a friend of mine from NC and I at an event. He's a tribe member. Semper Fi.
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deerstalkert said:

well folks, every rifle i build is ventless right up to the very last minute of the build. and being a Ojibwa "Indian" i suppose all my creations are Indian made junk!

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I like your post deerstalkert. I reckon I can say that as well, being part Powhatan/Algonquin Native American. Just a smidgen though. One of my grandfather's form the early 1700's married a Native American woman from that tribe. I come from that blood line. Here's a pic of a friend of mine from NC and I at an event. He's a tribe member. Semper Fi.