Unloaded muzzleloader at the range?

andy52 said:

Had that happen at my range a couple of months ago. I had a few buddies shooting and one was having trouble getting a good spark, he was working on the flint and dropped the hammer to check for a spark. He was holding the rifle with the lock-up.
Well, it sparked and gravity carried the sparks down the vent hole, and off it went.
Fortunately, he had it pointed down range.

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Just curious. Why was he working on a loaded rifle?

Yes, although charged is a better term for that condition on a Muzzleloader we were shooting at the time and he couldn't get a spark and was working on the flint with no prime in the pan.

andy52 said:

Yes, although charged is a better term for that condition on a Muzzleloader we were shooting at the time and he couldn't get a spark and was working on the flint with no prime in the pan.

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I understand, but still, he should have known that "Murphy" is always lurking!

I'll tell you it got his attention, he got that deer in the headlight look..

Montgomery said:

Just curious. Why was he working on a loaded rifle?

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So...

You load your rifle and go to the line and can not get the flint to spark....

Isn't anything you do subsequent "working on a loaded rifle" ????

French Colonial said:

So...

You load your rifle and go to the line and can not get the flint to spark....

Isn't anything you do subsequent "working on a loaded rifle" ????

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It seems to me if there is a problem with the lock, flint etc that can not be cured easily and quickly while the firearm is pointed down range, then you have a "problem" that will need more attention and work. At that point in time it should have been unloaded. ie, remove the powder and ball etc. IMHO

Montgomery said:

It seems to me if there is a problem with the lock, flint etc that can not be cured easily and quickly while the firearm is pointed down range, then you have a "problem" that will need more attention and work. At that point in time it should have been unloaded. ie, remove the powder and ball etc. IMHO

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It can not be cured while pointed down range...... at that point in time it should have been unloaded.... And how did it get unloaded?

No spark, how do you unload it without
A. Working on the flint (Knapping etc.) or
B. Removing powder and ball by what method, ball puller? Which I have never seen done while pointing down range because you would have to get in front of the gun.

I guess a CO2 discharger would be the best option, if someone had one

French Colonial said:

It can not be cured while pointed down range...... at that point in time it should have been unloaded.... And how did it get unloaded?

No spark, how do you unload it without
A. Working on the flint (Knapping etc.) or
B. Removing powder and ball by what method, ball puller? Which I have never seen done while pointing down range because you would have to get in front of the gun.

I guess a CO2 discharger would be the best option, if someone had one

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Yes, A CO 2 charger or the old fashioned way of a ball puller. Either way, it seems foolish to not try and unload the firearm.

French Colonial said:

It can not be cured while pointed down range...... at that point in time it should have been unloaded.... And how did it get unloaded?

No spark, how do you unload it without
A. Working on the flint (Knapping etc.) or
B. Removing powder and ball by what method, ball puller? Which I have never seen done while pointing down range because you would have to get in front of the gun.

I guess a CO2 discharger would be the best option, if someone had one

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I will vote for the CO2 discharger, they don't really cost that much, and They generally work quite well. You have to buy the larger CO2 cartridges instead of the smaller Crossman ones, but it's a small price to pay for safely unloading or taking care of a dry ball situation. I don't like the thought of standing in front of the muzzle trying to use a ball puller On any rifle. I tried a lot of dumb things when I first was getting started, but after I learned about Murphy's Law I became much more careful. I never dry balled until I joined the club and had others around me. The first time the president told his out and blew the ball out of my rifle, I went home and ordered one. I would've bet that it wasn't a dry ball but it was. Now after 10 years later I can dry ball anytime.
Squint

Shadowalker164 said:

Oh, I like that idea Montgomery! A red feather! That will work

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I wonder if a bright red hammer stop might work? At my range, range is hot until everybody responds range cold. Once, a kid was fiddling with a gun while we were down range and I motioned to his father who went ballistic on him. At my first club, all of the RSO’s must have been DI’s and it was fun to watch when someone violated the safety rules.

Montgomery said:

It seems to me if there is a problem with the lock, flint etc that can not be cured easily and quickly while the firearm is pointed down range, then you have a "problem" that will need more attention and work. At that point in time it should have been unloaded. ie, remove the powder and ball etc. IMHO

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Montgomery said:

Yes, A CO 2 charger or the old fashioned way of a ball puller. Either way, it seems foolish to not try and unload the firearm.

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The ball puller puts at least your hands if not more in front of the muzzle.
Not everyone has a CO2 discharge.

The mistake wasn't adjusting the flint, it was "checking for sparks," in a manner that didn't account for what might happen of spark was obtained.

Best one I seen and I was lucky to be standing far away. This expert was loading his muzzle loader from the powder horn WHILE smoking a cigarette....!

I shoot in Texas and we have had two (2) folks who shot while others were down range, you cannot be too safe!!!!! One of them post here.

mikesto44 said:

Best one I seen and I was lucky to be standing far away. This expert was loading his muzzle loader from the powder horn WHILE smoking a cigarette....!

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Reality is always stranger than fiction!!!

Smoking on the line is not supposed to happen nor loading directly from a horn, where was The Range Officer? Range Officer needs some counseling.

I'm sorry. But, yes, folks can, "be too safe."
We see them on the roads all the time,,, making things unsafe for others by being overly cautious.

Life has risk. Anything worth doing has risk. Just getting out of bed and going about your day has risk. (Most accidents happen in and around the home)
There is a balance between being safe or mitigating risk, and being so risk averse that doing anything becomes impractical and tedious.

"Can't be too safe," is just another extreme to be avoided. Nothing good is found at the extreme end of any issue or subject.

Brokennock said:

I'm sorry. But, yes, folks can, "be too safe."
We see them on the roads all the time,,, making things unsafe for others by being overly cautious.

Life has risk. Anything worth doing has risk. Just getting out of bed and going about your day has risk. (Most accidents happen in and around the home)
There is a balance between being safe or mitigating risk, and being so risk averse that doing anything becomes impractical and tedious.

"Can't be too safe," is just another extreme to be avoided. Nothing good is found at the extreme end of any issue or subject.

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Being down range when two (2) folks shoot is not in my definition of being too safe!!

They should be banned from the range, dead is dead.

FishDFly said:

Being down range when two (2) folks shoot is not in my definition of being too safe!!

They should be banned from the range, dead is dead.

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Agreed.
But there is, "can't be too safe," and not safe at all. Shooting while someone is down range is in the second group. And as someone who was a lead RSO on both a public pistol range and for some organized competitions,,,,, I would have banned those shooters permanently as well.
If the persons downrange had gone down when they were not supposed to I would ban them too, and I have. One might be surprised how often someone will walk downrange on a live/hot range to pick up a target or hanger,,,,, I ban them permanently.

That said, "can't be too safe," is still a path to extremes. Such as, the flintlock doesn't fire, so they flint must be adjusted. Is it not reasonable to make sure the pan is empty, maybe (i would) plug the flash hole, and move the flint forward in the jaws or flip it over? Maybe remove it, knap it, and put it back. Then unplug, reprime, aim downrange, and try the shot again?
Or, because "we can't be too safe," should the shooter, use a CO2 discharger every time the flint needs fiddling with until it is right?

I'm certainly not saying you are wrong about the bozos involved in shooting while folks are downrange,,, that phrase ""can't be too safe ," sets off alarm bells with me.

ord sgt said:

I am a RSO and a black powder enthusiast. When shooting, if there is a call for "cease fire", I inform the RSO about the status of my rifle or pistol. If fully loaded, they allow me time to get the shot off. Otherwise, I refer to the state Game & Wildlife rule for muzzleloaders. An uncapped or unprimed pan of M/L is considered "unloaded". It is then safe for transport after a day's hunt.
This is applied to the range too. The rifle is left in the upright position, safe from falling down while at the loading bench on the firing line. All personnel stand clear of all benches during cease fire while people are down range.

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Safe for transport after a hunt is VERY different to being on a firing-line.
As far as a flintlock, I believe that an unprimed pan is STILL a risk as powder could trickle out.
Why not have a bright red or orange bag placed over the cock so that IF it is (accidentally, we hope) snapped it will not scrape the steel?
For a percussion firearm the same "bag" would work - and also fit the nipple (cone) with a small flag. This would be easily made from a red standard plastic .22 breech flag with a wire added, to be inserted in the vent.

Loyalist Dave said:

AH but the reason for a "chamber flag" is to show at a distance there is nothing in the barrel. Using a ramrod that is bottomed on the breech, does the same thing, and the orange part on the protruding jag makes it easier and simpler for a person at a distance to visually confirm the same situation as a chamber flag, Not fool proof by any means but much more of a true indicator than a piece of cloth at the muzzle or between the hammer and frizzen or nipple, which doesn't actually verify the barrel is empty.

LD

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Good point, as long as the rod is marked with a ring or groove and the legend "ROD AT BOTTOM OF THE BARREL" (or similar) showing.