Half cock

By common consensus
THAT JUST TOOPID!

Uncle Miltie said:

I wouldn't carry a rifle without a halfcock notch, but many original rifles did not have them, mostly rifles that were used for match shooting.

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Built this Billinghurst style underhammer to hunt with, originals were target guns with no half cock. I turned a bronze ‘cap’ which covers the capped nipple and the hammer rests on top of the cap. If you can’t come up with a safe, useable system, you have a target gun not a hunting gun.

Rifleman1776 said:

When I first joined this forum I made a similar comment and was severely excoriated for it. I had learned from one of the most greatly admired old timers in the ml world and NMLRA that was a good, and safe way to carry a cap gun when hunting. Lowering the hammer down on the cap also protects it from rain. A rather strong, sharp blow to the hammer is required to set off the cap in that condition. I believe it is as safe, or safer to carry a cap rifle that way than at half cock. I carry a flint rifle at half cock when hunting and stay EXTREMELY cognizant of it every second I am in the woods. That is not a safe condition and the only safety is from the attention of the nut carrying it.

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Three years ago I bought my first frizzen cover. I never had a flinter go off unexpectedly. However I’ve started using the cover.
Silly?
Just getting old and worrying about everything?
I don’t know. Anyway I do it. Pull it off when I take a stand.
Use it while trekking

Billy Boy said:

Built this Billinghurst style underhammer to hunt with, originals were target guns with no half cock. I turned a bronze ‘cap’ which covers the capped nipple and the hammer rests on top of the cap. If you can’t come up with a safe, useable system, you have a target gun not a hunting gun.

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That's really nice!

Uncle Miltie said:

That's really nice!

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Thank you kind sir!

tallPercshooter said:

So I see a very nice modern-made custom Leman trade rifle. Builder says he removed the half-cock notch, "as were many originals." When I hunt, I load powder and patched ball, put hammer on half-cock, put cap on nipple. That's how I carry it, only need to cock to full cock to shoot. Without a half-cock notch in the tumbler, how do you carry a loaded rifle? 1. loaded but no cap, hammer down 2. capped, hammer down ( YIKES) or 3. capped. hammer at full cock (double YIKES) None of these seem ideal. What am I missing?

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Would it be possible that some builders long ago omitted the half cock notch so they could eliminate having to come up with or make a fly for the tumbler?
Or maybe the tumblers were sometimes not properly heat treated and the lip of the notch broke off and the owner simply filed the affected area smooth and so he could go ahead and use the gun?

To safely carry a cap gun that never had a 1/2 cock ??
Cut in a 1/2 cock with the hammer .020"-025" above the capped nipple and put in a detent(fly). O.D.

smoothshooter said:

Would it be possible that some builders long ago omitted the half cock notch so they could eliminate having to come up with or make a fly for the tumbler?
Or maybe the tumblers were sometimes not properly heat treated and the lip of the notch broke off and the owner simply filed the affected area smooth and so he could go ahead and use the gun?

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That is true for many of the table guns, chunk guns or plank guns. The guns were built without a half cock notch in the tumbler so that a fly was not needed. These target rifles were built around an excellent barrel and triggers. The sights were precisely set for the mostly 60 yard range X targets. The stock was often just a stable plank to hold the parts together. The locks were hand built to a high function with a short, fast hammer throw for fast lock times, but for use at these target competitions, the need for a fly was just not justified for a rifle that was loaded long enough to get from the loading bench to the target platform to be capped and shot.

I read that many pioneers were killed when they pulled a loaded rifle out of a wagon, barrel first. The hammer caught on something, fell, fired the gun. Must have been put away capped. On half-cock? Or fully down? Surely not at full cock.

GREENSWLDE said:

To safely carry a cap gun that never had a 1/2 cock ??
Cut in a 1/2 cock with the hammer .020"-025" above the capped nipple and put in a detent(fly). O.D.

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That's my idea too but I would leave out the fly if it's a single trigger rifle. A fly is only needed with a set trigger, or maybe a very light single trigger. The safety problem with a fly is that while you're packing the rifle through the brush the hammer can be pulled back by a branch and if it doesn't get pulled back far enough for the sear to engage the full cock notch the fly will let it go past the half cock notch when it slips off the branch and fire the rifle. Without the fly the sear will lodge back in the half cock notch.

tallPercshooter said:

So I see a very nice modern-made custom Leman trade rifle. Builder says he removed the half-cock notch, "as were many originals." When I hunt, I load powder and patched ball, put hammer on half-cock, put cap on nipple. That's how I carry it, only need to cock to full cock to shoot. Without a half-cock notch in the tumbler, how do you carry a loaded rifle? 1. loaded but no cap, hammer down 2. capped, hammer down ( YIKES) or 3. capped. hammer at full cock (double YIKES) None of these seem ideal. What am I missing?

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You could get a Kap Kover and carry with the hammer resting on the Kap Kover

pwbsmokey said:

You could get a Kap Kover and carry with the hammer resting on the Kap Kover

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I think that builder was full of manure, and was just too lazy or careless to make or install a proper and safe lock.

Weird, I have noticed that the L and R lock that I purchased from Pecatonica (although it is stamped on the back L&P) will fire in the 1/2 cock position as well as the full cock. So if I removed the fly would it not fire at half cock?

kentuckyjed said:

Weird, I have noticed that the L and R lock that I purchased from Pecatonica (although it is stamped on the back L&P) will fire in the 1/2 cock position as well as the full cock. So if I removed the fly would it not fire at half cock?

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Your lock should not fire from the half cock position. There is something wrong with the half cock notch. Pecatonica or L&R should be contacted to restore the half cock function. The purpose of the fly is to lift the sear off the tumbler and over the half cock notch when the gun is fired.

Is there any possibility that we could see a picture of the tumbler?

The Crisco Kid said:

That's my idea too but I would leave out the fly if it's a single trigger rifle. A fly is only needed with a set trigger, or maybe a very light single trigger. The safety problem with a fly is that while you're packing the rifle through the brush the hammer can be pulled back by a branch and if it doesn't get pulled back far enough for the sear to engage the full cock notch the fly will let it go past the half cock notch when it slips off the branch and fire the rifle. Without the fly the sear will lodge back in the half cock notch.

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A lot of work to do, and THEN it would be not as the maker intended.

The Crisco Kid said:

That's my idea too but I would leave out the fly if it's a single trigger rifle. A fly is only needed with a set trigger, or maybe a very light single trigger. The safety problem with a fly is that while you're packing the rifle through the brush the hammer can be pulled back by a branch and if it doesn't get pulled back far enough for the sear to engage the full cock notch the fly will let it go past the half cock notch when it slips off the branch and fire the rifle. Without the fly the sear will lodge back in the half cock notch.

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Quote ---- "Without the fly the sear will lodge back in the half cock notch."
If you are lucky ;-(((

I put a valve stem cap over my nipple when hunting. They protect from moisture, prevent accidental firing due to brush/branches and are easily removed for firing.

Billywfe said:

I put a valve stem cap over my nipple when hunting. They protect from moisture, prevent accidental firing due to brush/branches and are easily removed for firing.

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I have an original Leman, pulled the lock and guess what, no half cock. I believe it's a bench gun half stock 1 1/8 barrel heavy, 40 cal. Reg open sights. The thing I thought odd was that each part of the lock was marked 32, all parts matched. Any ideas from anyone on this? I will try to post a pic or 2 of the rifle. Takes a man to carry tho, good exercise if you need it.

The Crisco Kid said:

That's my idea too but I would leave out the fly if it's a single trigger rifle. A fly is only needed with a set trigger, or maybe a very light single trigger. The safety problem with a fly is that while you're packing the rifle through the brush the hammer can be pulled back by a branch and if it doesn't get pulled back far enough for the sear to engage the full cock notch the fly will let it go past the half cock notch when it slips off the branch and fire the rifle. Without the fly the sear will lodge back in the half cock notch.

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Crisco, Thanks for your input,however the trigger on this rifle is a European Single set.It is cocked by pushing the trigger forwards and is adjustable. If the hammer is pushed back the 1st 1/2 cock is still there as a safety.

Over the last 20 years , I've noticed a few new locks , won't mention the Mfgers names , that won't stay at full cock , if the butt of the gun is bumped on a carpeted floor. This is a test I use to check the safety of a lock mechanism. If I can cock the lock , and the tumbler safety notch engaged every time , w/o fail , while bumping the rifle butt at least five times on a solid surface , to me, that's considered good. Next , if the sear nose will stay in the full cock notch , while the gun butt is being bumped on a solid surface a minimum of five times , that's a start. Also , if the sear nose doesn't sit squarely in the full cock notch , the notch needs to be deepened a few thousandths of an inch until the sear nose can't slip out of the tumbler's full cock notch , when the butt bump test is repeated. Another caveat ,the sear arm needs to be relieved of any wood in the sear arm inlet hole , to guarantee the sear arm has free movement at all times. Unless you are very familiar with lock mechanisms ,have someone that is , to check the safety of your lock...........oldwood