Short barrel muzzleloaders and accuracy.

Woody Morgan said:

Traditions Deerhunter at 50yds with a 250gr REAL, felt OP wad with olive oil and 50 grains of 3f OE. Three rounds. I hadn't adjusted the sights for windage yet.

wm

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That's really good. I had to look it up that Traditions Deerhunter has a 24in barrel.

Perhaps barrel length doesn't really matter under 100m as can be concluded from replies to this thread.

I wonder if there is anyone that shoots a round ball to 100m with good accuracy using a 24in barrel. If not, it may be that accurate loads for short barrels (24in) don't have enough velocity to remain accurate at 100m?

28in is in my book a "medium length" barrel. I shot my 50 cal to 100m with good results and I haven't even developed a best load for it yet

Pistols in my opinion should be excluded from the comparison. I shouldn't have mentioned them in the beginning. I think so because of much faster twist rates allowing for good accuracy with slower speeds.

I have also recently found a good load for my 11in Pedersoli howdah 58. I could only take 4 shots at the time, but all went into the 10 ring at around 30m(hands resting on a sand bag) . It was 50 grains of 3f, a 575 ball from a Lee mold cast from pure lead and a patch that compresses to 10 thou.

I also feel my Remington cap and ball revolver with 7in barrel is definitely much more accurate than me.

Scota@4570 said:

Barrel length does not determine accuracy potential. Modern bench rest guys use short fat barrels. I have "unlimited" ML match pistols that cut one hole at 25 yards when shot off a bench. On the other hand I had had 36" ML rifle barrel that shot no better than 3" at 50 yards with any load off the bench. It had very deep, narrow, round bottom grooves. In that case gas leaked past the patch in the grooves. Certain factors are common to accurate barrels, smooth finish, consistent twist (or gain), consistent bore size (or choked), fairly straight, a good crown, and reasonable rifling dimensions.

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This "reasonable rifling dimensions" is a very interesting variable. I read in few places rifling should be deep for patched round ball and shallow for conicals. However, my two most accurate round ball rifles both have what feels like very shallow rifling. I haven't measured it, but it feels like 4 thou. Perhaps with long barrels and slow twists one can get away with shallow rifling for round ball, while in shorter barrels (specially with the "universal" twist) only deep rifling will provide enough hold on the ball.

With your 36in ML with very deep rifling did you find any evidence of patch burn through or ripping? I wonder if gas blowby always rips a patch or can one have blowby with perfect patches?

Since you mentioned it, Ironoxide, I have a .32" X .54 with .006" grooves and a 1-66"twist that loves to stack ball on top of ball at 60 yards, which is as far as I've ever fired it. It doesn't particularly like conicals at all but loves prb.

Ironoxide said:

Is there anyone here that owns a short barrel muzzleloader(24 in or less) and can shoot it accurately?

There are a lot of discussions online about ML barrel length and projectile speed, ability not to waste powder, long barrels offering longer distance between sights (or ability to install rear sight further from shooter's eye) etc.

However, I suspect it is not the whole picture. I have few ML rifles and smoothbores in various calibers. Some have long and very long barrels.

In general I can shoot all my MLs with long barrels fairly well(for me) . A good example is my 38 cal 44 inch barrel squirrel gun (Pedersoli plainsman). Shooting it seated at a bench(no wiping between shots) I get holes touching if I do my part.

Shooting my 54 cal long barreled Pedersoli "Pennsylvania" flinter at the bench on a good day I can stay in the (8in)black at 100m (sure this is not national championship winning shooting, but I'm quite happy with it).

However, shooting MLs with 24 inch and shorter barrels I can just about get it on (20x20in)paper at 100m. Shooting another ML with barrel slightly less than half the length - a .58 cal 11inch barrel howdah I get same results, but at half the distance! (meaning I can just get it on paper at 50m). Same with my 7 inch barrel 45 cal revolver. Then halving barrel length again (from 7 to 3.5inch) with my little "snub nose" 45 cal revolver I can only get it on paper at 25m.

I would very much like to find out if this is typical and if there is anyone who does shoot short barrel muzzleloaders accurately. I define "accuracy" as equal to whatever your results are when shooting 28inch+ long barreled rifles.

If that's you, do you have any special advice for shooting technique for short barrel rifles?

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I'm not expert but isn't that a fact? I thought longer barrels, longer range. Short barrels, close range. Pistols are for keeping things from getting too close and long barrels are for snipers.

Ballsout said:

I'm not expert but isn't that a fact? I thought longer barrels, longer range. Short barrels, close range. Pistols are for keeping things from getting too close and long barrels are for snipers.

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After my comment I read your post about keeping pistols out.....uh, sorry.

Barrel length is not a factor in accuracy of the gun. But length is a huge factor in being able to shoot accurately. That said, my wife has a cabinet full of medals and awards she won shooting an H&A underhammer Buggy rifle. As I recall, it was a 22" barrel.

A longer barrel will always give you more velocity and a better sight radius.

But really short barrels are a hoot to shoot.

Sumpthin da wimminz and chillins could wield inside a covered wagon heading west.

The most recent Jukar .45 resurrection.

I should mention the "point of diminishing returns". At some point if you were doing an experiment, on barrel length and velocity, increasing the barrel length beyond 39 inches will not increase your velocity, and may actually lower it. This is a "rule of thumb", and will vary with rifle and load. This principle will always hold true! Your actual results will vary.

I hunted once with a Paget Carbine 16" brl & once & a shorter cheek stocked 1 in 16" pitch to its under 20" brls with its late "English,lock bowled a goat but never going to be target rifles .
Rudyard

Google Idaho Lewis videos and watch him shoot stock TC Renegades out to distances such as 1200 yards. Only change is the sights. Idaho Ron does likewise but with Green Mtn barrels on his Hawkens.
Walk

Here is a 100 yard sight-in target (5-1/2” bull) for new sights on the flintlock 26” barrel (already had the load figured out). It was one of those good days. Mr Hoyt’s barrels are more accurate that me every day.

Here's my Parker Hale Musketoon, 24" barrel-



It's a complete myth that short barrels and carbines are inaccurate. They are a bit more difficult to shoot accurately for the average person because of a shorter sight radius and generally lighter weight.

64Springer said:

But really short barrels are a hoot to shoot.

Sumpthin da wimminz and chillins could wield inside a covered wagon heading west.

The most recent Jukar .45 resurrection.

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I did a similar thing to an old FIE 45 caliber muzzleloader. Mine has an 18" barrel.

I've spent a lot of time over the past 20 plus years with a T/C PA Hunter Carbine, 21" barrel in both percussion and flintlock. I recently had a .50 Cal T/C White Mountain Carbine, 21" barrel, rebored to .54 by Bobby Hoyt with a roundball twist. The maximum range I've benched these guns at is 50 yards and they all shoot well. I like the percussion 50 PA Hunter Carbine so much I've got a couple stashed away, one nib the other I've shot once or twice. I can hit a clay pigeon off hand at 50 yards about 85 % of the time using the percussion PA Carbine, I've also killed one deer with it, only a 35 to 40 yard shot. Are they accurate? Given what they are, I'd say yes. Would I select them for match shooting, probably not but as a lightweight easy to carry gun more than capable out to 50 yards and likely more they're hard to beat.

hanshi said:

Since you mentioned it, Ironoxide, I have a .32" X .54 with .006" grooves and a 1-66"twist that loves to stack ball on top of ball at 60 yards, which is as far as I've ever fired it. It doesn't particularly like conicals at all but loves prb.

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With .006 shallow depth rifling & 1 in 66' twist you have a perfect combo for patched round ball shooting,
Barrels with the same depth rifling that have a 1 in 48" twist also perform very well with round balls or slugs but they require a very tight fitting patched round ball combo to avoid skidding & patch burnout & blowby.
Most who have been shooting muzzleloading rifles & pistols for a few decades find that many custom or original barrels have much deeper rifling than modern repros & are more forgiving & accurate with patched round balls in barrels. even those with much faster twist rifling.
relic shooter

"As one ages lighter rifles rule while hunting "
I loved packing & my tack driving 7.25 lb .70 cal Jaeger with it's swamped barrel while hunting big game in Idaho's mountains.

I have a CVA Mountain Stalker rifle with a cut down barrel, 19 inches. It only weighs 5 1/2 pounds, very easy to tote around the woods. I've only shot it out to 50 yards. Pretty accurate with a patched ball.

While I have never checked the rifling ROT in a 25" .45 I use for targets the grooves are pretty deep and the rifle very accurate. The little guy weighs in at 6 lbs even with its 15/16" barrel. My guess is around .010" to maybe .012" deep.

My 24" Deerhunter will stack rounds balls at 50 yds. all day. At 6 1/2 lbs. it's light and handy in the thick woods I hunt. Dropped a doe last year (first ML kill) at 80 yds. with a text book behind the shoulder shot.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that longer barrels probably help with a steadier follow through, especially with something like a flintlock.