Extremely frustrated

Didn't happen to change how you either wipe or don't wipe between shots to control fouling did you?

check for warpage in the forearms. or loose screws . both can cause shift in point of impact.
are you getting a group when shooting or a pattern?

I've been using 2f Goex and 2F Schuetzen with good results in the .50 and 3f Schuetzen and 3F Swiss for the .40.

Like I've said, these same loads worked well in May at 50 yards. Right now the only thing I can think of is the patch material maybe being different although the same thickness.

Just for the purpose of brainstorming, what size ball are you using? Personally I have found better accuracy with a smaller ball and a thicker patch that fills the grooves than with a larger ball and thinner patch.

Is it possible you are resting your barrel on the sandbags now, while you rested the forearm on the sandbags in May?
Barrel on the bags can sometimes raise havoc with accuracy.

I'm getting patterns. These are all good thoughts for beginning to develop a load but my issue is that these combos I used yesterday and today are the same combos I came up with in May that worked then. That was after hours of testing a variety of components and combos of those components. I saved my targets and recorded the results to duplicate my success at a later date.

Especially in the .40, it does not like a patch thicker than .010". I've tried thicker patches in both of these guns with poor results.

I make sure the forend is on the bag and not the barrel.

jimdvan said:

I'm getting patterns. These are all good thoughts for beginning to develop a load but my issue is that these combos I used yesterday and today are the same combos I came up with in May that worked then. That was after hours of testing a variety of components and combos of those components. I saved my targets and recorded the results to duplicate my success at a later date.

Especially in the .40, it does not like a patch thicker than .010". I've tried thicker patches in both of these guns with poor results.

I make sure the forend is on the bag and not the barrel.

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A Caption Obvious thought, but something you were doing or using back in May has changed. Are you using a different batch or lot of roundballs? Patch material? Lube? Powder? The solution is very simple, once you know the cause, but that can be the hard part, you know, not seeing the forest because of the trees.

Do you by chance have photos of your targets when you was shooting good and when you were shooting bad? Just curious

What kind of balls are you shooting? A poor run of balls could definitely make everything else pointless. If you haven't them I would weigh them and toss everything more than 1 grain lighter than the heaviest ball for the 50 or .5 grain lighter for the 40.aybe you've done this and usually you certainly don't have to be quite that picky but since you are hunting a gremlin....

Longone said:

Could it be time for a nipple to be replaced?

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Bingo!

I've segregated the balls by weight. I'm starting to think it may be the patch. Same thickness, different material. If that is the case then it would really dampen my interest in shooting these guns much more. What happens when you can't get the same patch material? Then you start searching for an alternative but now you're reinventing the wheel. I don't enjoy constant load development. I don't mind the initial development but I don't want to have to chase it every time I shoot.

As far as the nipple goes, when is a replacement necessary? There's probably only 100 rounds through it.

jimdvan said:

I'm starting to think it may be the patch. Same thickness, different material. If that is the case then it would really dampen my interest in shooting these guns much more. What happens when you can't get the same patch material? Then you start searching for an alternative but now you're reinventing the wheel. I don't enjoy constant load development. I don't mind the initial development but I don't want to have to chase it every time I shoot.

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That is why I measure patch material thickness compressed. And once I find a patch material that works I buy a couple yards from the same lot that will last for years. Cost may $5 +/- a little for a 60” wide yard of material. Will last a long time unless you shoot a lot. In that case, buy more from a single lot.

jimdvan said:

As far as the nipple goes, when is a replacement necessary? There's probably only 100 rounds through it.

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Number of rounds really doesn’t say much. It’s the weight of the projectile and the powder charge that influences nipple wear. A good way to check is with pin gauges. No pin gauges, get a set of welder tip cleaners. Less than $10. I have guns from 1980 or so that still shoot tight groups to the same POA, although powder charges have been tweaked a bit as powder manufacturers have come and gone.

What's the condition of your bores? If you didn't clean the barrels or the breach well it may be affecting your precision.

jimdvan said:

As far as the nipple goes, when is a replacement necessary? There's probably only 100 rounds through it.

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I have found it depends on a few items. This year with th powder situation I decided to play with some Pyrodex in my Lyman GPR. All round ball shooting at 100 yds, I had a nipple go south in two outings. Groups opened up tremendously with only 75 grains of RS. The nipple had a very obvious flame cut to one side of the hole. My Pedersoli Rocky MTN Hawken shoots better with the berillium nipple than the factory steel? Nipples. Not sure how long they are going to last but after 3 outings so far so good. I usually shoot about 50 balls per outing.
I have no way to prove what I am about to say and I’m hoping we don’t get sidetracked but I’m thinking the Pyrodex burns either hotter than good old black powder or slightly slower resulting in a longer burn causing erosion of the nipple.
This is all purely speculation on my part and in one more pound I’ll be going back to black powder so none of this will matter to me.
Free advise part. Change one thing at a time and keep records of everything.
Best, LG

jimdvan said:

The patches looked great after firing, same as in May. What I found with the .40, which is a Rice barrel, is it absolutely will not shoot with a patch thicker than .010". When I worked up loads for these and other guns, I tried numerous combos of powder, patches, lube, powder weight, blah, blah, blah. I spent hours on each one. That's why I wrote down all the info, and saved the targets, when I got the groups I wanted so I wouldn't have the trust my memory or reinvent the wheel.

Loads that worked in May are now not working with all the variables in components being the same. The temps and humidity are also similar.

I'm shooting from sand bags. The same table and bags I used in May. Not only are the loads not hitting to the sights now, I'm shooting patterns instead of groups.

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An aside but worth mentioning - in my experience, if you sight in any rifle from a sand bag it will shoot some low in the field. They tend to shoot away from hard things - high, and you adjust the sights accordingly. Target guns - always fired that way - great, meat guns - sight them in resting on a boat cushion, foam car-top carrier block, something with a little give.

jimdvan said:

I've been shooting muzzle loaders off and on since 1977. In the last 2 years I've become more serious about it and have been diligent in writing down what works in each gun. Percussion and flintlock. I've spent countless hours shooting each gun from .32 to .54. Kibler SMR and Lyman GPR's. I am to the point of selling almost everything due to the inconsistencies I get from each of these guns. The past 2 days I've worked with my Kibler .40 and my GPR in .50, refering back to my notes and targets from earlier in the year when I found loads that worked really well. Now when I try the same combinations the guns aren't even close to the sights and not only do I not have target accuracy, I don't even have hunting accuracy at 50 yards off the bench.

I was wanting to take one of these guns deer hunting next week but I can't rely on either. It's not my eyes because I can take my cartridge guns and shoot under an inch with some of them at 50 and 100 yards.

Rant over.

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"Beware of the man who shoots one gun" try concentrating on one rifle.

Tom A Hawk said:

My .40 has a Colerain barrel and I had to go down to a .380 ball. Now, with a .015" patch its a real tack driver.

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Physics teaches that the same action performed in the same way under the same conditions will produce the same results. Something’s not the same. If all rifles are doing it I would suspect powder. All good advice here.

Any chance you may have developed a flinch? If you are anticipating the shot or failing to follow through properly you may be disturbing the aim at the last possible moment. This may be particularly true if it seems that your cartridge guns are not subject to this problem; presumably they get the shot out of the bore quicker than your longer-barreled muzzleloaders. You might benefit from some dry firing - first with set triggers only, and then cycling the lock. (For a flintlock, substitute a piece of wood for the flint to avoid wasting flints and frizzen steel; for a caplock you can cushion the hammer blow on the nipple by putting a faucet washer over the nipple. For proper follow-through, simulate holding the sight picture and hold as if you were watching the shot pass through the target. Good luck; I hope this helps some.

Now that I've slept on it and am not so angry I'll clean the bore very well and start again with a different patch material for the .50 GPR.

I reviewed the target on my .40 Kibler and with 35 gr. of 3F Schuetzen I put 3 shots into one hole, benched at 50 yards so I think that one is good to go. Since I want to shoot a deer with it I'll start increasing the powder charge and see what I get.

Thanks for all the input. I'll check out some of the suggestions offered.

picked up more than a few "won't shoot" rifles that bores looked clean and spent time doing serious deep cleaning and bingo accuracy restored.