For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

Rock Home Isle said:

That’s what I was hoping when I bought it…but no, completely India made…

There’s a YouTube Channel, Capandball. He did a video on India made firearms…very informative. He has footage of various collections and how they are made…in that video is the gun that I bought…it’s not mentioned specifically, he’s standing next to it as he talks about a different gun.

Cannot find that video…but I’ll keep looking…

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please do. I would rely like to see it.

Surfinator58 said:

I recently saw a YouTube video in which an individual purchased a famous maker Flintlock Kibler Seiler Eleanor anyway it was from track of the Wolf completed guns he goes to the entire gun and shows all the poorly done fitting and finishing throughout the gun that made it worth in his estimation about half what he paid and of course This lends itself to the possibility of failure when barrels aren't seated properly in their stock I would say in this particular case an Indian maid Flintlock is better because it has to be gone through and finished

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Just because parts come from a reputable shop doesn’t mean the builder is of high talent, i don’t see how that’s an equity as to the beneficial purchase of an indian made arm. Indian made arms are all individually made by hand, I’ve seen some very poor and some very good and you’ll never know who made it. At least here if you choose a builder and you don’t like his work, you have a name.

Surfinator58 said:

I think you're right that part of the takeaway of this is maintenance but not the most important the most important as far as this forum is concerned is the fact that the metal in the manufacturing process of the India made guns is every bit as good as many of the commercially available products

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Disagree on the steel being of equal quality, if it were it would be more expensive. I suspect that much of the steel used in Indian is domestic recycled steels which loses carbon. Indian is a known industrial recycler or scrap machinery and ships.

I wouldn’t say every bit as good. I’ve worked on several indian locks, I’m not a metallurgist but they’re locks are often in very poor shape, the metals are very soft too.

wganz said:

Here is one I found. I have no words for that mess up. Yeah, for that many $$$$, I'd be ticked off also.

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That's a good video I guess you never know which way to turn if you can't inspect it on hand I guess you might deal with those sub par stuff..That's one thing thats stopping me from really taking the plunge getting someone else's manure...

John Spartan said:

I find this kind of amazing and wouldn’t have guessed. I shoot with a cartridge box and bayonet strap but am not a re-enactor. Like to shoot with period appropriate equipment but I’ll keep my own clothes.
Seems like if you argue thread count on a waist coat you would take care of the soldiers most important piece of gear - and reason for existence. Weird.

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That's really cool that you use the appropriate equipment to shoot! I'd do the same thing! It's nice to have a "stand of arms" meaning the ctg. box and appropriate belts when collecting a nice musket.

FlinterNick said:

Disagree on the steel being of equal quality, if it were it would be more expensive. I suspect that much of the steel used in Indian is domestic recycled steels which loses carbon. Indian is a known industrial recycler or scrap machinery and ships.

I wouldn’t say every bit as good. I’ve worked on several indian locks, I’m not a metallurgist but they’re locks are often in very poor shape, the metals are very soft too.

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I'd like to think the India mfgrs. know they're selling a product that people expect to actually use. I don't know much about the importers here and in Canada, as far as their relations with the managers of the factories over there in India. I did always believe the metals can be "soft". The people in the US that have accessories made in India, like repro ctg. boxes, military accoutrements, etc., guard their sources like the keys to Ft. Knox; they don't want any other importers using their factories! It's all very secretive. As we've all said here, you have to make your own decision and use common sense. I also believe it's totally impossible for any entity to sue an Indian manufacturer! If every importer got together in sort of a "union" to encourage an increase in quality and authenticity of Indian guns it would perhaps result in an over-all improvement.

Brokentaileddog said:

That's a good video I guess you never know which way to turn if you can't inspect it on hand I guess you might deal with those sub par stuff..That's one thing thats stopping me from really taking the plunge getting someone else's manure...

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Thanks for the good info. If India started making Italian-quality stuff, they'd be very successful!

smoothshooter said:

Define “ not manufacturing to be a firearm “?

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When it leaves the manufacturer, it will not function as a firearm.

smoothshooter said:

If a reputable American custom BP gunmaker builds a nice $2,500 rifle, but does not drill the vent hole so that it can be shipped to a jurisdiction that would penalize the shipper and prospective recipient for attempting an illegal firearms transfer without a firearms importer’s license, does that make said $2,500 rifle not manufactured to be a firearm?

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Yes. If anyone manufactures an object, at any price, and it is not sent out the door as a functional firearm, then it was not manufactured to be a firearm, and as such you can't hold the manufacturer liable for any problems that might happen as the result of someone trying to use it as a firearm.

It doesn't matter what the reasoning was behind the manufacturer making this choice.

smoothshooter said:

I am not defending or condemning the quality of Indian-made guns. Overall, the metallurgy and fitment of parts is probably as good or better than most of the guns in use in the 1700 - 1850 period around the world.

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I agree. To me the quality is totally irrelevant. The issue is, will the manufacturer stand behind the product or not.

Rock Home Isle said:

@Banjoman your gun looks well loved. I swear, every time you post images of this gun, I fall for it again & again.

View attachment 160641
Here’s my 11gauge India made smoothbore. It was very inexpensive. I bought it to use as a loaner. But it’s just too nice…so still looking for that loaner smoothbore. I’ve taken geese, with heavy goose loads…very responsive firearm.

When I got the gun, I had to replace the tang bolt…found a replacement at Ace Hardware. And I had to replace the nipple…got 3 of them from Track of the Wolf…shot the gun pretty heavily for about 2 years, with no problems. Been looking for a second one…but have never come across another of these.

And of coarse it’s been on several dove hunts, quail & pheasant hunts. I haven’t shot it in the last 10 years, as I’m pretty much a flinter these days…but still a very nice gun.

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The more I come back to this thread, the more I like that Hawkenesque shotgun.
Two questions. First, saw that it is an 11 gauge but do you have the diameter in inches and, secondly, any idea on the original importer?

Much appreciated,


ETA:
Have emailed Loyalist Arms a pix of that 11gauge to see if they had ever seen this and, if so, could they get them.
As my grandfather would say, "You never catch any fish until you get your hook in the water."

toot said:

please do. I would rely like to see it.

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@Surfinator58 Found the video…previous page.

wganz said:

The more I come back to this thread, the more I like that Hawkenesque shotgun.
Two questions. First, saw that it is an 11 gauge but do you have the diameter in inches and, secondly, any idea on the original importer?

Much appreciated,


ETA:
Have emailed Loyalist Arms a pix of that 11gauge to see if they had ever seen this and, if so, could they get them.
As my grandfather would say, "You never catch any fish until you get your hook in the water."

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When I bought it…it was sold as a 12 gauge. But it was not, the bore is .750 calibre, same as a Brown Bess. Since I shoot my Bess as a scatter gun most of the time anyway, I already had everything needed. I was going to order the 12 gauge supplies once the gun arrived, and it didn’t take long to see that it was not a 12 gauge.

I do not know who the original importer was, and the seller had no clue as well. Otherwise I would have 2 of these fine guns, instead of just the one.

Sorry if this sounds disjointed and sort of rambling. I’ve been shooting all day, and I’m beat…

smoothshooter said:

Define “ not manufacturing to be a firearm “?

If a reputable American custom BP gunmaker builds a nice $2,500 rifle, but does not drill the vent hole so that it can be shipped to a jurisdiction that would penalize the shipper and prospective recipient for attempting an illegal firearms transfer without a firearms importer’s license, does that make said $2,500 rifle not manufactured to be a firearm?
I am not defending or condemning the quality of Indian-made guns. Overall, the metallurgy and fitment of parts is probably as good or better than most of the guns in use in the 1700 - 1850 period around the world.

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Technically no. At least in most states muzzleloaders aren't firearms according to the law.

DixieTexian said:

Technically no. At least in most states muzzleloaders aren't firearms according to the law.

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States, not countries. Selling in much of Europe where reinacting is a ‘thing’ there are strict controls

Rock Home Isle said:

When I bought it…it was sold as a 12 gauge. But it was not, the bore is .750 calibre, same as a Brown Bess. Since I shoot my Bess as a scatter gun most of the time anyway, I already had everything needed. I was going to order the 12 gauge supplies once the gun arrived, and it didn’t take long to see that it was not a 12 gauge.

I do not know who the original importer was, and the seller had no clue as well. Otherwise I would have 2 of these fine guns, instead of just the one.

Sorry if this sounds disjointed and sort of rambling. I’ve been shooting all day, and I’m beat…

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It's a really neat little gun!

tenngun said:

States, not countries. Selling in much of Europe where reinacting is a ‘thing’ there are strict controls

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They're firearms in like California, NY, NJ, etc. Governor of NJ, very anti-firearm, is going to run for President, has hinted at it, and has revised his hairstyle ( a real clue!) and if he gets the bugs bunny dental work repaired, you know he's going for it! There will be anti-firearm he-double-el to pay!

I think all this commenting about Indian-made guns is a good thing! Pros and cons, any discussion will ultimately wring out better knowledge for all interested in the subject. I've had 3, only one left, others got traded or sold to enactors who wanted 'em for impressions or blank shooting at best.

springfield art said:

They're firearms in like California, NY, NJ, etc. Governor of NJ, very anti-firearm, is going to run for President, has hinted at it, and has revised his hairstyle ( a real clue!) and if he gets the bugs bunny dental work repaired, you know he's going for it! There will be anti-firearm he-double-el to pay!

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How’d that work for NJ and NY? Now the state is approving concealed carry permit applications.

DixieTexian said:

Technically no. At least in most states muzzleloaders aren't firearms according to the law.

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I am referring to the American socialist states and foreign countries.

springfield art said:

I think all this commenting about Indian-made guns is a good thing! Pros and cons, any discussion will ultimately wring out better knowledge for all interested in the subject. I've had 3, only one left, others got traded or sold to enactors who wanted 'em for impressions or blank shooting at best.

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I agree! I was very pleased to find the HP White laboratory study which validated a lot of owners on this website believing and now proven that the steel is the same steel used in the European gun industry as well as the American manufacturers write down to the crystal structure in microscopic photos and the tensile strength measurements which also back up the fact that the steel is high quality!

maillemaker said:

When it leaves the manufacturer, it will not function as a firearm.

Yes. If anyone manufactures an object, at any price, and it is not sent out the door as a functional firearm, then it was not manufactured to be a firearm, and as such you can't hold the manufacturer liable for any problems that might happen as the result of someone trying to use it as a firearm.

It doesn't matter what the reasoning was behind the manufacturer making this choice.


I agree. To me the quality is totally irrelevant. The issue is, will the manufacturer stand behind the product or not.

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That's an opinion -- which you keep repeating over and over. No matter how many times you say horse feces taste good, most of us will say they don't and won't try them. You're welcome to your feces though.