The Art of Patches.

I'm very new to shooting PRBs. I haven't shot lead for accuracy, just to check out my Hawken .50.
What is the purpose of patches? From reading here, this is what I have gathered:
1. Round lead balls fit the barrel loosely, with the gap being taken up by the patch, usually around .010" thick. That, of course, depends on the sizes of the barrel and the lead balls. I've shot revolvers where you shave off a ring of lead when loading a cylinder, and PRBs for rifles are not that tight, even with a patch. How tight should the ball with patch be? Should I have to pound on it to get it down the barrel? Or just moderate pressure to push it home? For a .36 barrel, will a .350 ball with a .011 patch be too tight? Should I keep the ball + patch = barrel diameter? I'm wanting to answer all these questions at the range myself, but it's still mid 90s, and it becomes a matter of endurance.
2. Sometimes balls are hard to seat, and folks beat them down the barrel. That could be because of a dirty barrel, but also because of a too-thick patch. Does the tight, thicker patch grab the rifling better than a thinner patch? How thick is too thick for a patch? If you can pound it in, will the bp shoot it out?
3. I don't want to touch on lubes in this thread, just the art and science regarding patches. Are there any other comments about patches?
I appreciate y'alls comments.
Thanks,
Brazos John

So…I run a ball that is .010” under bore size (.490 in a .50, .530 in a .54, etc) with .018” patches and mostly lubed with moose milk (recipe is all over this forum). From first shot to last in a shoot, easy loading. No “pounding the ball down”. This could actually damage your muzzlegun. The patches job is to grip the ball and create the gas seal, prevent barrel leading in a rifle and allow the rifling to impart the spin to the ball. The thickness of the patch should be dictated by the accuracy you are seeing for results only, and no, .010” patch on a .350 ball is not too tight for a .36 cal rifle.
There is a lot more information on this subject but as you’ve stated, at this point you are only asking starting questions on patching.
Walk

General rule of thumb is ball .010 under nominal bore size and patch of .015. It doesn't always work out exactly that way and it's a starting point. The real problem is the patch varies in actual thickness. Usually best accuracy is with a tight patch and ball combo. I run a .495 ball with a .015 patch. It's hard to get started but shoots really well.

I seem to get the best accuracy…in general…when the ball & patch combination is snug. Snug seems to work great, if the ball & patch easily pass down the bore, with little effort, that’s too loose. And if you have to grit your teeth and really work to get the ball down the bore it’s too tight.

In general terms, Most of my guns shoot their best when the combination of patch & ball is a snug fit.

That being said, I’ve had a .54 calibre that loved a very tight fitting patch & ball combination….and my TVM .40 calibre likes an under-sized .375 RB with a loose denim patch…so go figure.

I am no expert! But I love theorizing. I'd say part of the variability in too-tight vs. too-loose for a particular barrel is influenced by variations in bore diameter (btw barrels), perhaps bore diameter w/in the length of a barrel, compressability of the patch material, actual hardness of the "pure" lead RB, and consistency of the propelling pressure (i.e. charge variability btw shots).

In my own limited experience, I've noticed fouling build-up & increased difficulty in loading, even with the same ball/patch combo, have a "side effect" as well. If it's harder to push the shot down, it's also harder to push it back out again, and I have noticed an increase in felt recoil (sometimes). This perception has caused sort of a pre-flinch at times! Therefore, a difference in accuracy with a tighter fitting patch/ball combo is (in my case at those times) perhaps more a result of shooter behavior than the combo itself.

ETA: Another variable could be the depth, shape, & condition of the rifling grooves.

It also depends a great deal on what you're doing, target shooting or hunting. At a match shooting at paper you can use a range rod and load a tight combination for better accuracy (usually but not always better). For me at least when I'm hunting I want a combination that loads easy for that second shot if I need one and I'll give up a little accuracy. The same goes for trail walk matches.

Brazos John said:

Or just moderate pressure to push it home?

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Yes. Experiment with ball/patch combos to see what groups best with your rifle. This game can be confusing. Stating calibers is often just a 'sorta' figure. e.g. A rifle stated to be a '45' caliber might use balls from .433" to .475". You gotta feed yours what it likes best.

When I’m breaking in a brand new barrel, I will wipe the bore with BreakFree CLP for about a week or two before taking the gun to the range. CLP is a penitrating oil that really does a good job of working all the crud out of the micro pores in the bore from the machining process.

Then I go to the range and shoot the gun a few times, and check the patches…if the patches show signs of being burned or torn, I clean the bore then I’ll put a little valve grinding compound on a patch and burnish out the bore to remove the burs…following every range session, after cleaning the bore, I’ll run a couple patches of BreakFree CLP as a final step before putting the gun away.

Kinda "just in general".

The patch spins the ball.
prevents leading the bore.
My .45s get the same load whether using .440" or .445" ball. Patch material should be compressed
in the rifling grooves.
It also removes a good bit of fouling with every load/shot.
Tighter prb loads often give better accuracy and increased velocity.
I like a good, "snug" fit that's safe with a wood rod. Too tight is as bad as too loose.
And other stuff I cant think of offhand.

For me the best method to determine the best patch thickness is performed at a range with a bench rest.

I use a .530 RB in my 54.
I keep my patch lube consistent and vary the patch thickness

Shoot several groupings for each patch thickness.

I discovered that a .010 patch was consistently easier to load than an .015 patch. However the .010 patch was more prone to have burn holes.

I then experimented with fillers to remedy the burning of the .010 patch. I found that loading corn meal on top of the powder keeps the .010 patch from burning. I use a 9mm brass shell as a corn meal measure.

Loading powder then corn meal then PRB, I did not have an unacceptable diffence in groupings using .010 patch vs .015 patch.

I use a .010 patch for ease of loading and acceptable accuracy, eg I shoot off hand and have been able to cut playing cards in half and break pencils.

My main point is to experiment at the range using a bench rest to find the PRB recipe combination that WORKS BEST FOR YOU.

I have found that the best shooters I shoot with use a patch/ball fit that slides down the barrel after getting started for the first six inches. Most of their rifles have been lapped so that there is a slight"choke" to the barrels of about .0003.

Brazos John said:

just the art and science regarding patches.

Click to expand...

If you want to discover the art and science of all that is patch and lube,, AND acquire the utmost accuracy for any rifle using PRB
You should get "The System" .
https://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/
Developed during the lifetime of our now past and esteemed member @Dr5x.
This technique IS the Alpha and Omega of all that is PRB.
Follow it devoutly through the learning curve, read and re-read multiple times, do not waver from the guidelines.

p.s. pay the extra for the now again available hard copy.
p.p.s. Several years ago Dutch decided to go all electronic and commented here he only had a few hard copies left.
I ordered the system again with a special request, I now have a signed copy with the authors personal remark.

Dutch was one of the greatest contributors to this game. He shared his knowledge rather than keeping it secret. Many of us owe him a lot for the advice he gave us. He put down being consistant in a plain easy to follow manner.

In the simplest terms a patch is just a gasket which completes the seal between the ball and the barrel .
I have named my Latest Leman rifle Harold in honor of Dutch .

I’m probably over-thinking this but in regard to cutting patches, some pre-cut their patches and others cut them at the barrel. Once the ball is placed on the patch with the sprue facing up, how much patch should be left exposed around the ball before ramming it home? Is the ball below the level of the crown or just partially started with some thumb pressure before the cut is made? Does the depth of the grooves determine how much patch is left around the ball?

BlazingIron said:

I’m probably over-thinking this but in regard to cutting patches, some pre-cut their patches and others cut them at the barrel. Once the ball is placed on the patch with the sprue facing up, how much patch should be left exposed around the ball before ramming it home? Is the ball below the level of the crown or just partially started with some thumb pressure before the cut is made? Does the depth of the grooves determine how much patch is left around the ball?

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If cutting the patch at the barrel, the ball is just inside the barrel. A sharp knife run flush across the muzzle cuts the material, then finish seating the ball. If it takes only thumb pressure or something more depends, as discussed above, on the ball-patch combination.

BlazingIron said:

I’m probably over-thinking this but in regard to cutting

Click to expand...

That's a variable with a wide range, honest.
@BoomStick say's seat it flush then cut flat across the muzzle,, well that works just fine, cause all ya need is a consistent seal around the ball at it's widest circumference. Seating the PRB flush with the muzzle accomplishes that,,
What I learned in practice,, is that doing that, scratches the muzzle face and dulls the knife.
What I learned in observation of top shooters is that any "extra" fabric above the muzzle of a flush seated ball is mute. It matters not.
I have seen them cut an inch above the muzzle all day long and still walk up the the prize bench on a regular basis.
I seat flush (actually button deep) then gather the fabric above the seated ball and cut just above the muzzle,, my blade doesn't touch steel.
There is a caveat with that practice as follows.
The "extra" fabric needs to be folded below the ramrod end while driving the prb to the bottom.
If that's not done, there is a chance the fabric will/can gather around the end of the rod itself and dislodge it's position when the rod is pulled out

On my 2 guns, both .50cals, one groups better with a .495 ball and .014 white cotton patching and the other with a .490 ball with .018 pillow ticking. Both patches are drylubed with ballustol and water 7:1. I need to use a short starter with both and ramming both down with the rod "feels" the same. I dont know how to measure or describe "tightness" in thus context, so I'll ask, do you need a short starter to get the ball deep enough to cut at the muzzle? If not, maybe you need tighter.

Like was previously stated. Each barrel is going to have its differences. Boughten patches are like buying and adjustable hat. They’ll fit a range of options. Your going to have to play around with it. You can always check your patches that have been discharged already. Just go and find them in the grass about ten or so yards in front of you. I like to see that just the edge of the patch has been singed. This will also help you determine the sweet spot of your powder load. Obviously ; record what achieved the best accuracy.

To avoid the head banging reactions to people writing new posts that cover material that can be found by searching past ones I searched then selected "The Art of Patches" from last June, hope I went back far enough for you all.

Range report from this morning. Using a .45 T/C Hawken caplock, based on serial number probably a late 70's gun darn near mint. Patches tested using .440 Speer roundball, Schuetzen fffg and two patch thicknesses, .011 and .017 nominal. You know, the ticking that's all the same thickness regardless of color . The .011 green stripe and the .017 red stripe. No contest, at 50 yards the green stripe was the clear winner based on 10 shots for each color, spit lube. I did try the red stripe lubed with mink oil lube, didn't group as well as spit, I'll try it on the green stripe next outing.

Oh, about that late 70's estimated vintage, well that's based on the serial number of my first T/C Hawken I bought in about 1976 after watching it sit on the shelf for about 2 years before I took it home. The .45 has a Maltese cross stamped on the bottom flat, my earlier .50 has a spade stamp.