Original or Replica ?

The seller on this auction is advertising this pistol as an 1800's British Dragoon - Question Mark ? Obviously, to me, this is one of the many replicas from Mirouku in Japan and sold by the hundreds during the 1960's and 70's. The "Made in Japan" stamp may have been removed from the barrel sometime in the past. Of course, an original Dragoon would easily fetch the opening bid price, and probably more. I'm thinking this may not be a case of the seller attempting fraud. It's simply a case of a dealer in primarily modern guns being unfamiliar with earlier black powder arms, original or replica. What do you all think ?

I sent the seller an email politely advising him of the replica status. No word back.

Rick

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/937353732

That's not an original. Sorry.

looks like a 70's japan job to me

I just sent an e-mail saying I was of the opinion that it was an inexpensive replica and suggested he pull the barrel and lock and post photos of the breech plug and lock interior.

Pretty obvious...

UPDATE:

Sometime during the auction the opening bid was lowered to $600.00 The auction now ended, with the lone bidder making the purchase at that price. If the new owner ever shows the pistol to someone with knowledge, this may come back to haunt the seller. Of course, the seller may point out the "?" after the title in the auction, claiming ignorance, even after receiving a couple emails from us. Oh well.

rickystl said:

UPDATE:

Sometime during the auction the opening bid was lowered to $600.00 The auction now ended, with the lone bidder making the purchase at that price. If the new owner ever shows the pistol to someone with knowledge, this may come back to haunt the seller. Of course, the seller may point out the "?" after the title in the auction, claiming ignorance, even after receiving a couple emails from us. Oh well.

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That's really sad, I've passed on those for only 250!

rickystl said:

The seller on this auction is advertising this pistol as an 1800's British Dragoon - Question Mark ? Obviously, to me, this is one of the many replicas from Mirouku in Japan and sold by the hundreds during the 1960's and 70's. The "Made in Japan" stamp may have been removed from the barrel sometime in the past. Of course, an original Dragoon would easily fetch the opening bid price, and probably more. I'm thinking this may not be a case of the seller attempting fraud. It's simply a case of a dealer in primarily modern guns being unfamiliar with earlier black powder arms, original or replica. What do you all think ?

I sent the seller an email politely advising him of the replica status. No word back.

Rick

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/937353732

Click to expand...

Oh, Please! This is such a typical replica I could recognize it blindfolded. We've all owned one at one time or another.

The 'solid walnut stain' peeling off the bottom of the pommel is just one clue.....

Looks very similar to an early Dixie tower pistol I have had for 40 + years.

andy52 said:

Looks very similar to an early Dixie tower pistol I have had for 40 + years.

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Same one. I bought one from Dixie in the mid/late 1960's. I order it with the optional frizzen spring reduction and frizzen hardening for an additional $6.50 if I recall. LOL

rickystl said:

Same one. I bought one from Dixie in the mid/late 1960's. I order it with the optional frizzen spring reduction and frizzen hardening for an additional $6.50 if I recall. LOL

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I bought mine as a kit, in fact it was the first muzzleloader I ever built.

Some of you guys might remember a Thread I posted a couple years ago.

The worst I've ever seen was an auction where someone paid $6,000.00+ for one of those India made wheellock pistols. I sent an email to the auction house with an attachment showing the replica status, but no response. With auctions, it's all about the money. I will say the pistol had the best job of antique finishing I've seen.

There are foolish people everywhere, I have no sympathy for them. If they don't learn it's no one's fault but their own.

You’re right about there being foolish people everywhere, but last I had heard it wasn’t a crime to be a fool, just a heck of an inconvenience. Defrauding people is a crime though, even if its never prosecuted.

Even the ‘best’ auction houses get fooled at best … or at worst … frankly just don’t care.

A glaring example was when Cowans Auction House went to sell off the alleged ‘Hannah Dustin’ musket, although the barrel was made 60-years later then the actual event, of which was pointed out by no less than 3 reknown experts.

Heck, even the Newtowne matchlock is an elaborate forgery! Yet still (to this day!) proclaimed by the US National Guard and Smithsonian Institution to be ‘the real thing’.

Old enough to remember these being sold new for as little as 19.95 in the American Rifleman magazine. Since then have bought a dozen plus of those and not one was more than $30 to $75 They would sit in our showcase or table like forever with few takers. Now they seem to fetch about $250 due to the failed dollar. I think to advertise them with any hint to originality is near fraudulent. Pointed out similar, but outright fraudulently listed ones, and found out later that in some cases that the seller had put us on his blocked bidder lists for our efforts. Think there is little recourse for duped buyer in this instance. Vindictive seller can easily add buyer to ALL of his blocked lists plus leave negative feedback to boot.

The REAL problem is that most of us (old timers?) would recognise these BUT the villains are relying upon victims with little experience. That is one reason why I am so much against "defarbing" as it provides an opportunity for fraud.
The other reason is, to my mind more rational. The people who have it done think that it adds authenticity. Back in the day the firearm would not have looked like it had been subjected to 150 years wear !

Have I got my knickers in a twist?

These and the Bannerman's made up pirate pistols get me going every time. Seen the bannerman's sell for nearly 2k and had to break the news to many estate owners they weren't going to get rich. Some were assembled as late as 1970's from stockpiles of old parts.