Frizzen Hardening?

FlinterNick · Jun 23, 2022

dave_person said:
Either you or TOW or both are misinformed. Are you implying Jim Chambers doesn't know what alloys he uses? Don't rely on TOW, find out from Jim himself.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=71550.0
dave

Dave…. The frizzen i have on my chambers lock is a 6150 casted frizzen, I’m sorry for not being clearer. I know its 6150 casted steel becuase i replaced the old frizzen with a copy, that was quoted in 6150 steel. I’m was not implying Jim does not know his product sir.

FlinterNick · Jun 23, 2022

waksupi said:
I find I get good hardening with heated automatic transmission fluid. I heat a steel rod to yellow, and stir my oil container to heat.

I’ll have to give this a try. How thin is automatic transmission fluid ?

FlinterNick · Jun 23, 2022

dave_person said:
That is wrong. Most frizzens on commercially made locks are cast in SAE 1095 steel and if you doubt that here is a link documenting it. Scroll down to where Jim lists his alloys.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=71550.0
That is the usual suite except L&R used an alloy with 10% carbon so very high carbon for frizzens. Not sure they are still doing that. It may be that TRS cast frizzens are 6150 but not the commercially made locks.

dave

Muzzleloaders.com March or April issue had a flint and steel article and quoted the Rifle shoppe’s method of hardening and tempering 6150 steel frizzens and springs and had reservations about their methods. While I’ve never cracked a frizzen, i have had issues with cracks in 6150 springs in a water quench, and have stopped. I’m inclined to say that there’s more than one way to do it (skin a cat) and some folks just get good at one method but this article, parts 1 -3 provided me with the best step by step instructions for hardening a frizzen, along with some better equipment too but the sheet steel used to wrap the parts is kind of expensive. I’ve since adopted that method and have had very good working results.

FlinterNick · Jun 23, 2022

VAN said:
When using a torch, I heat from the back of the frizzen to avoid burning out the carbon on the front face as per instructions that came with the Siler Kits.

I stopped using torches for hardening critical gun parts. I only use torches on things like tools and flint strikers.

Rock Home Isle · Jun 23, 2022

ronaldrothb49 said:
I started shooting competition and building rifles back in the 70's. Could not begin to say how many thousands of shots I have fired with any of the rifles I have owned, Lets just say I was a very active shooter. I have NEVER had to re-harden a frizzen. On this page and others I follow every time there is a post about not getting sparks the first reply out the gate is you need to re-harden the frizzen when that should be the last thing you look at.

Saw a post recently where guy said he just got his first flintlock and took it out to shoot for first time. Fired 50 rounds and the more rounds he fired the less sparks till now he isn't getting any sparks. The first reply and 8 out of the first 10 replies were you need to re-harden your frizzen. The second most reply was your frizzen spring is too strong. Then came the mainspring is too weak. Lets see you were getting good sparks, then you started getting less sparks now your getting none. Could it possibly be the first thing to look at would be your FLINT.

I read that as well…

waksupi · Jun 23, 2022

FlinterNick said:
I’ll have to give this a try. How thin is automatic transmission fluid ?

I would guess around 5 weight. I learned this when I apprenticed with E.G. Smith.

LRB · Jun 24, 2022

ATF will work on 01 steel, and some other chrome bearing steels that need a medium speed quench, but it is not necessarily best. All of the 10XX steels require a fast quench and will respond from good to OK using warmed canola oil. Most all oils except one or two commercial quench oils cool faster when heated to around 125° to 130°. Much over 140° is gambling on slowing the hardening transition and not getting a complete transition result which contains retained austenite/ partially untransformed steel. Some steels are more prone than others to get it, and a little is not too bad, but none and minimal is better. ATF gives off toxins that you really don't need. Motor oil is even worse, and a very poor quench oil. With all quenches use enough to do the job, plus a little more to be sure.

Fitzhugh Williams · Jun 24, 2022

The simple way to get a good frizzen is to avoid the hardening process and simply put a sole on it from the start.

Loyalist Dave · Jun 24, 2022

FlinterNick said:
Dave…. The frizzen i have on my chambers lock is a 6150 casted frizzen, I’m sorry for not being clearer. I know its 6150 casted steel becuase i replaced the old frizzen with a copy, that was quoted in 6150 steel. I’m was not implying Jim does not know his product sir.

So folks, I know a fellow who builds locks for Chambers. After the cast frizzen has been fitted..., A controlled heat source is used, and a specific quenching oil is used, and then the frizzen is heated in a controlled environment a second time at a lower temp, and allowed to cool. In fact I think this final step is done twice.

As an aside...,
After seeing the procedure, I have found it hard to believe that the folks that wrap a Pedersoli frizzen in a piece of leather, drop this into a steel can, crimp the can closed, and then dump all of that into a campfire, and later remove the hot can and drop that with its contents into room temp water, are actually doing anything other than some haphazard tempering of their old frizzen.

LD

FlinterNick · Jun 24, 2022

Loyalist Dave said:
So folks, I know a fellow who builds locks for Chambers. After the cast frizzen has been fitted..., A controlled heat source is used, and a specific quenching oil is used, and then the frizzen is heated in a controlled environment a second time at a lower temp, and allowed to cool. In fact I think this final step is done twice.

As an aside...,
After seeing the procedure, I have found it hard to believe that the folks that wrap a Pedersoli frizzen in a piece of leather, drop this into a steel can, crimp the can closed, and then dump all of that into a campfire, and later remove the hot can and drop that with its contents into room temp water, are actually doing anything other than some haphazard tempering of their old frizzen.

LD

The tin can method has been quoted many times over the years

I’ve heard of people using parks 150 quench oil but it’s super expensive.

I did once quench a frizzen in bucket of old English lemon oil, this was an accident that had good results, no scaling, cracking and adequate hardness. But I never tried it again.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=13235.0

FlinterNick · Jun 30, 2022

Spoke to the owner of the Rifle Shoppe Jess Melot, he's thinking about switching from 6150 to 1095 for his castings.

From discussions I've had with him and a few other shops that mold parts 6150 is very good for casted springs because of its (chromium or manganese not sure) than an investment casted spring in 1095.

FlinterNick · Jun 30, 2022

Loyalist Dave said:
So folks, I know a fellow who builds locks for Chambers. After the cast frizzen has been fitted..., A controlled heat source is used, and a specific quenching oil is used, and then the frizzen is heated in a controlled environment a second time at a lower temp, and allowed to cool. In fact I think this final step is done twice.

As an aside...,
After seeing the procedure, I have found it hard to believe that the folks that wrap a Pedersoli frizzen in a piece of leather, drop this into a steel can, crimp the can closed, and then dump all of that into a campfire, and later remove the hot can and drop that with its contents into room temp water, are actually doing anything other than some haphazard tempering of their old frizzen.

LD

tempering with a quench is a practice I've never seen, I would think that could produce a crack or two rather than letting it air cool on a brick or piece of wood.

Loyalist Dave · Jul 1, 2022

FlinterNick said:
tempering with a quench is a practice I've never seen, I would think that could produce a crack or two rather than letting it air cool on a brick or piece of wood.

Which is why after he hardens the frizzen with a quench, "..., the frizzen is heated in a controlled environment a second time at a lower temp, and allowed to cool..." There is no quench the second time.

LD

FlinterNick · Jul 1, 2022

Loyalist Dave said:
Which is why after he hardens the frizzen with a quench, "..., the frizzen is heated in a controlled environment a second time at a lower temp, and allowed to cool..." There is no quench the second time.

LD

No LD I was thinking about the tin can camp fire thing. At best that tin can will get up to 700-900 and quenching at 700-900 tempering ranges could cause a surface crack. Who ever thought this could work ….

Loyalist Dave · Jul 1, 2022

FlinterNick said:
No LD I was thinking about the tin can camp fire thing. At best that tin can will get up to 700-900 and quenching at 700-900 tempering ranges could cause a surface crack. Who ever thought this could work ….

GEESH of course... missed that by a mile, I did...... That makes sense now. I agree..., but I think that the frizzen doesn't nearly get that hot when they do this so all they might be doing is some sort of tempering...

LD

LRB · Jul 1, 2022

Loyalist Dave said:
Which is why after he hardens the frizzen with a quench, "..., the frizzen is heated in a controlled environment a second time at a lower temp, and allowed to cool..." There is no quench the second time.

LD

With temper heats in the range of blades or frizzens, water quench in tempering does no harm. Frizzens cool pretty fast just air cooling, but if you want to get right back to work on something or do a second temper and not have to wait for the piece to air cool, you can water cool it and move on. When double tempering blades in an oven it saves time and energy, and also lessens retained austenite in some steels.

deerstalkert · Jul 1, 2022

LRB said:
With temper heats in the range of blades or frizzens, water quench in tempering does no harm. Frizzens cool pretty fast just air cooling, but if you want to get right back to work on something or do a second temper and not have to wait for the piece to air cool, you can water cool it and move on. When double tempering blades in an oven it saves time and energy, and also lessens retained austenite in some steels.

helps avoid shattering if one warms the water quench.

1971fx · Mar 16, 2023

Original Brown Bess with resoled frizzen makes big sparks

Flintlock Whiskey · May 21, 2023

deerstalkert said:
this is almost impossible to quantify. there are so many variables involved.
with a correct setup you may never need to reharden.
i have a TC hawken that i squeezed 20 shots out of 100 tries from before i started threatening to wrap it around a tree. the frizzen was like butter.
finally broke down bought some caseinate (sp)? from TOTW and rehardened the thing. i have fired well over 200 shots from it since and had zero failure to spark. and only one flash in the pan!! it is the most consistent working gun i have.
i guess the only real advice i can give is if you start to curse the thing for lack of spark, don't hesitate to fix it. avoid trees.

After you rehardened your frizzen, did you temper any part of it? Worried that when I do it, the base will be too brittle and break.

LRB · May 24, 2023

FlinterNick said:
The tin can method has been quoted many times over the years

I’ve heard of people using parks 150 quench oil but it’s super expensive.

I did once quench a frizzen in bucket of old English lemon oil, this was an accident that had good results, no scaling, cracking and adequate hardness. But I never tried it again.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=13235.0

Just a correction of a probable typo, it is PARKS # 50 quenchant, not 150. If you are a business person or just doing a lot of heat treating of 1095 or other 10XX steels, the PARKS # 50 is not all that expensive when you consider the quality of the results against a failed or inferior product. Warmed canola oil often can get you by for 1095, but it is not the best for all things made of 1095. It will work for frizzens or fire strikers well. Knife blades can be a hit or miss depending on the standards you set for quality and 1095 steel used to be notorious for noticeable variances in its batches from the mills. The PARKS # 50 is a sure thing if you do your part well. Only a quench in warm brine will give the maximum quench result and beat PARKS # 50, but how often is the maximum truly needed? Plus, it carries some amount of risk of breaking.

Frizzen Hardening?

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