Frizzen Hardening?

VAN · Jun 23, 2022

After building 2 Siler Flintlock Kits I got good results heat treating the frizzens with an Oxygen/Map torch and quinch in Canola Oil. I got the best results though with a quinch in warm brine water and draw at 350 degrees for an hour in the oven. I retreated the one where I used the oil, and the spark shower was noticeably larger using warm water quinch as it came from the tap with a little salt mixed in. No cracks or problems so far and the friend who suggested the warm water/salt quinch has been doing it for several years on Siler kit frizzens with no problems. I don't know what steel these are made from or what the benefit of the added salt is, but it works for me to use this method.

FlinterNick · Jun 23, 2022

VAN said:
After building 2 Siler Flintlock Kits I got good results heat treating the frizzens with an Oxygen/Map torch and quinch in Canola Oil. I got the best results though with a quinch in warm brine water and draw at 350 degrees for an hour in the oven. I retreated the one where I used the oil, and the spark shower was noticeably larger using warm water quinch as it came from the tap with a little salt mixed in. No cracks or problems so far and the friend who suggested the warm water/salt quinch has been doing it for several years with no problems. I don't know what steel these are made from or what the benefit of the added salt is, but it works for me to use this method.

Adding salt adds buoyancy to the water making it heavier so that the quench isn’t as hard on the steel and evenly distributes the cooling effect (as long as the part is headed evenly).

I add sodium nitrate to my quenches, just a tablespoon per gallon.

Aerated water can have the same effect, however most people don’t have an aeration pump laying around.

dave_person · Jun 23, 2022

FlinterNick said:
Most frizzens today are made of 6150 steel which is an oil hardening steel, however it will never get hard enough with an oil quench, so you need to use water.

Hi Nick,

That is wrong. Most frizzens on commercially made locks are cast in SAE 1095 steel and if you doubt that here is a link documenting it. Scroll down to where Jim lists his alloys.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=71550.0
That is the usual suite except L&R used an alloy with 10% carbon so very high carbon for frizzens. Not sure they are still doing that. It may be that TRS cast frizzens are 6150 but not the commercially made locks.

dave

LRB · Jun 23, 2022

Any steel rated for water quench is much less prone to crack if brine is used rather than pure water, and the steel cools even faster than in plain water, while also cooling much more evenly and often gaining another point of hardness. That is a few pluses over plain water which produces a violent reaction and uneven cooling when quenching . Uneven cooling is what causes cracks. I would suggest the brine be warmed to around 100°F. When you quench to harden, and that is not tempering. When you draw back the steel after hardening, that is tempering. A quenching brine is 13 oz of salt per gallon of clean water. A common box of salt is 26oz, so gives two gallons. Just FYI, when hot steel goes into water, or even most oils, the immediate result is a gas/steam vapor jacket around the steel which prevents/ retards/slows physical contact with the liquid for a fraction in time. The length of that time varies according to the liquid. The salt in brine pretty much prevents this retardation of contact and makes the contact near instant and very, very even. There are a couple of oils that cool extremely fast also, and can be used successfully with water hardening steel, but they can be used only on a few types of steel without problems arising.

LRB · Jun 23, 2022

FlinterNick said:
Adding salt adds buoyancy to the water making it heavier so that the quench isn’t as hard on the steel and evenly distributes the cooling effect (as long as the part is headed evenly).

I add sodium nitrate to my quenches, just a tablespoon per gallon.

Aerated water can have the same effect, however most people don’t have an aeration pump laying around.

waksupi · Jun 23, 2022

FlinterNick said:
Most frizzens today are made of 6150 steel which is an oil hardening steel, however it will never get hard enough with an oil quench, so you need to use water.

I’ve never had any issues with a 6150 frizzen cracking in a water quench after tempering. Only springs made of 6150 I’ve had crack in a water quench. I use oil for springs, but i have successfully hardened 6150 springs with a water quench simply by keeping the heat around 1350, very hard to accomplish this with a propane torch, you’ve got to be really good at estimating heated colors and shades of red and orange.

I set my oven at 1550 and pack the frizzen in compound with char coated made of peach Pitts. The peach Pitts have a natural cyanide in them that helps the absorption of the carbon. I’ve tested this on a flint strikers and it works wonderfully and then draw back the frizzen at 350 for 45 min.

I find I get good hardening with heated automatic transmission fluid. I heat a steel rod to yellow, and stir my oil container to heat.

VAN · Jun 23, 2022

LRB said:
Any steel rated for water quench is much less prone to crack if brine is used rather than pure water, and the steel cools even faster than in plain water, while also cooling much more evenly and often gaining another point of hardness. That is a few pluses over plain water which produces a violent reaction and uneven cooling when quenching . Uneven cooling is what causes cracks. I would suggest the brine be warmed to around 100°F. When you quench to harden, and that is not tempering. When you draw back the steel after hardening, that is tempering. A quenching brine is 13 oz of salt per gallon of clean water. A common box of salt is 26oz, so gives two gallons. Just FYI, when hot steel goes into water, or even most oils, the immediate result is a gas/steam vapor jacket around the steel which prevents/ retards/slows physical contact with the liquid for a fraction in time. The length of that time varies according to the liquid. The salt in brine pretty much prevents this retardation of contact and makes the contact near instant and very, very even. There are a couple of oils that cool extremely fast also, and can be used successfully with water hardening steel, but they can be used only on a few types of steel without problems arising.

When comparing the Canola Oil vs Warm Brine Water quinch I did notice while moving the part around in the oil it stayed red/orange hot a few seconds longer in the oil due to the steam pocket around the part. The Brine quenched it almost immediately as you said. This helps to understand the reason for the brine mix. Thanks.

LRB · Jun 23, 2022

The salt prevents a vapor jacket from forming around the steel. Nothing to do with buoyancy. By preventing the vapor jacket, the contact with the water is pretty much instantaneous and cooling begins at the same time. 1095 steel, to be at it's maximum hardness level has to cool from 1475°F to under 900°F in .6 to .8 of one second. That requires brine. If you use oil, Parks #50, and one other, a new one on the market, will do well enough. Warmed Canola oil will get you by, but any of the oils sacrifice a tad bit of hardness which may or may not be a hinderance to your end goal.

dave_person said:
That is wrong. Most frizzens on commercially made locks are cast in SAE 1095 steel and if you doubt that here is a link documenting it. Scroll down to where Jim lists his alloys.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=71550.0
That is the usual suite except L&R used an alloy with 10% carbon so very high carbon for frizzens. Not sure they are still doing that. It may be that TRS cast frizzens are 6150 but not the commercially made locks.

dave

I believe TRS does use the 6150 for their frizzens.

VAN said:
When comparing the Canola Oil vs Warm Brine Water quinch I did notice while moving the part around in the oil it stayed red/orange hot a few seconds longer in the oil due to the steam pocket around the part. The Brine quenched it almost immediately as you said. This helps to understand the reason for the brine mix. Thanks.

LRB · Jun 23, 2022

I cannot give you the chemical reason, but the salt actually bonds to the hot steel for I guess a few micro seconds or more.

rich pierce · Jun 23, 2022

Thanks for chiming in, Wick.

Col. Batguano · Jun 23, 2022

Another thought to consider is that in the hardening process, the heat on the frizzen face may have driven the carbon out of the face. Before you go to all the trouble of carbon packing, long heating, quenching, and re-tempering, try re-facing the frizzen. Just take the face to a drum sander and get down below the deepest scratches. It's just a tiny amount of the surface that may have been affected. If that doesn't work, THEN you can go the more involved route.

FlinterNick · Jun 23, 2022

dave_person said:
That is wrong. Most frizzens on commercially made locks are cast in SAE 1095 steel and if you doubt that here is a link documenting it. Scroll down to where Jim lists his alloys.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=71550.0
That is the usual suite except L&R used an alloy with 10% carbon so very high carbon for frizzens. Not sure they are still doing that. It may be that TRS cast frizzens are 6150 but not the commercially made locks.

dave

I’ve never purchased an LR lock my chambers locks are in 6150 per TOW. Only rifle Shoppe, tracks Wiits lock and parts I’ve sent to a foundry to have copied in 6150…. 1095 was not an option for me.

LRB · Jun 23, 2022

Col. Batguano said:
Another thought to consider is that in the hardening process, the heat on the frizzed face may have driven the carbon out of the face. Before you go to all the trouble of carbon packing, long heating, quenching, and re-tempering, try re-facing the frizzen. Just take the face to a drum sander and get down below the deepest scratches. It's just a tiny amount of the surface that may have been affected. If that doesn't work, THEN you can go the more involved route.

Yes. Good advice. Prolonged heat can burn out some carbon. If you file test it after the hardening, and the file cuts, clean the face and recheck. After you temper you can expect a file to give it a very slight cut, more of a very fine visible scratch especially if you use an edge of the file.

VAN · Jun 23, 2022

When using a torch, I heat from the back of the frizzen to avoid burning out the carbon on the front face as per instructions that came with the Siler Kits.

dave_person · Jun 23, 2022

FlinterNick said:
I’ve never purchased an LR lock my chambers locks are in 6150 per TOW.

Either you or TOW or both are misinformed. Are you implying Jim Chambers doesn't know what alloys he uses? Don't rely on TOW, find out from Jim himself.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=71550.0
dave

M. De Land · Jun 23, 2022

FlinterNick said:
I’ve never purchased an LR lock my chambers locks are in 6150 per TOW. Only rifle Shoppe, tracks Wiits lock and parts I’ve sent to a foundry to have copied in 6150…. 1095 was not an option for me.

Why 6140 ? The carbon content is less than half as much as 1095? By the way that's ( 40 and 95 hundreds of one percent) both of which are less than 1.00 percent.

FlinterNick · Jun 23, 2022

dave_person said:
Either you or TOW or both are misinformed. Are you implying Jim Chambers doesn't know what alloys he uses? Don't rely on TOW, find out from Jim himself.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=71550.0
dave

Track’s Brown Bess Frizzen is casted in 6150, the other parts are in 4140, their lock kit comes with instructions on hardening and tempering a frizzen casted in 6150 steel. Butch Schroeder of Butch’s Antique Gun Parts uses 6150 steel on his wax castings, rifle shoppe uses 6150 steel. The foundry I use is the same as Butch’s and they will only cast in 6150, 4140 and 8620, I rely on their expertise on casting, all I do is send them my waxes for new parts i need.

FlinterNick · Jun 23, 2022

M. De Land said:
Why 6140 ? The carbon content is less than half as much as 1095? By the way that's ( 40 and 95 hundreds of one percent) both of which are less than 1.00 percent.

I’m not sure, I don’t cast the frizzens. I think the foundries decide what they pour based on the type of waxes they get. But I’m honestly not sure, if i had a choice I tell them to cast in the best high carbon steel they have

Rudyard · Jun 23, 2022

Well Ive just read over these whole posts re frizzen/ Steels hardening & Iv'e never been that technical re steel specs. I did use faces of a thin EN9 a cutlery Steel these ide rivet & then run Silver solder round the edges ere I quenched the whole & ground off most then stone off what I couldn't grind .But getting a perfect result from numourus makers locks as been a diffculty I have to say & these views give me much to consider . The'' Bright sparks accompanied by a whizzing noise'' ideal is rarely found some old locks have it many do not And makeing reliable hot sparks is the whole point of a flintlock Brine, Sodium nitrate .Peach pips, transmission fluid . Ime impressed .I thought ide have to sell my soul to the devil but clearly there are better options I can try and these post have been very enlightening. I do case harden with horn ''leather' hair' chard bone' ect all steel parts which I found is not done even by the top US makers but Ive allways done it since it was originaly done that way every pin & screw , But getting the brilliant sparks consistantly well Ive had a few failures .( Same as Joe Manton according to Hawker .though he was reffering to his patch locks )And some very old locks Iv'e met with where far less than consistant could be worn out (I know the feeling).Still good to learn these things .
Regards Rudyard

FlinterNick · Jun 23, 2022

Rudyard said:
Well Ive just read over these whole posts re frizzen/ Steels hardening & Iv'e never been that technical re steel specs. I did use faces of a thin EN9 a cutlery Steel these ide rivet & then run Silver solder round the edges ere I quenched the whole & ground off most then stone off what I couldn't grind .But getting a perfect result from numourus makers locks as been a diffculty I have to say & these views give me much to consider . The'' Bright sparks accompanied by a whizzing noise'' ideal is rarely found some old locks have it many do not And makeing reliable hot sparks is the whole point of a flintlock Brine, Sodium nitrate .Peach pips, transmission fluid . Ime impressed .I thought ide have to sell my soul to the devil but clearly there are better options I can try and these post have been very enlightening. I do case harden with horn ''leather' hair' chard bone' ect all steel parts which I found is not done even by the top US makers but Ive allways done it since it was originaly done that way every pin & screw , But getting the brilliant sparks consistantly well Ive had a few failures .( Same as Joe Manton according to Hawker .though he was reffering to his patch locks )And some very old locks Iv'e met with where far less than consistant could be worn out (I know the feeling).Still good to learn these things .
Regards Rudyard

I’ve refaced frizzens using a 3/32 piece of knife blade stock that was hot rolled 1080 steel. I carburized the steel before TIG welding it to the old frizzen, worked great.

Frizzen Hardening?

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