Middlesex Village Trading - Any good?

Timber Rattler said:

Not at all! I bought a 1st Land Pattern "Transitional" Bess with bayonet from Loyalist Arms last year, and the service and quality are excellent for an "Indian" firelock. Loyalist Arms ships the product in two pieces to get around those dumb importation laws...the stock and barrel come in one package, and the firelock in another, and you put them together (which you have to do anyway every time you clean the piece). Shipping was easy, and there were no issues. Took about five days from the time my Bess left Halifax until it arrived at my home in Pennsylvania.

Loyalist Arms owner Blair Higgins is a really good guy, and stands behind his products. He doesn't proof the muskets though since the laws vary so much from country to country, but provides instructions for doing so. It's optional, but here is a video showing the "tire" method"

Barrel proofing a replica of an early 1700 Sea Musket from Loyalist Arms.

Be advised that Loyalist Arms has a big backlog on orders, and it could take 6 to 8 months to receive your musket after ordering. But it's worth the wait in my opinion.

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Thanks for posting that

pheenix99 said:

Any quality difference between them and say...pedersoli? I'm really lookin at a Brown Bess.

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I own multiple Pedersolis all top quality and excellent muskets. No complaints. Granted you’re gonna pay for it but why buy trouble with a cheaper gun.

Pedersoli Bess’s are fine, i just wouldn’t go to crazy on the defarbing, not worth it as it is a 7/8 scale second model Brown Bess, and would require a new stock to be a true second model.

Loyalist arms is my choice, other than the teak / rosewood ….. everything else is manageable.

Cliffdweller said:

From what I saw from the one time I walked into the place (Middlesex Trading) it is at a guys house in his basement and there was a lot of “stuff” laying around and he was an older gentleman ,a nice guy but a one man operation from what I can tell. That was about 5 years ago.

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This explains a lot…

John Spartan said:

I own multiple Pedersolis all top quality and excellent muskets. No complaints. Granted you’re gonna pay for it but why buy trouble with a cheaper gun.

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That's the vibe I'm getting (plus my own Pedersoli experience). Would be nice to find a used one at a slight discount.

My understanding is that all of the guns manufactured in India do not have touch holes drilled. This is so they can be sold as decorations and avoid the legal problems with exporting functioning firearms.

The Indians are quite capable of manufacturing to whatever quality standards you are willing to pay for. This is not the issue.

The issue is that you are purchasing something that was not manufactured with the intent of being used as a firearm. If anything goes wrong, the manufacturer will not stand behind the product as a firearm if you used it as such.

If you are OK with taking that risk, then fine. Many people have purchased these and used them and had no problems.

Be aware that purchasing a Pedersoli does not mean it is going to be high quality either. I purchased one about 6 months ago from Cabela's when they were on sale for $999. Mine had about a .04" gap between the lock and the barrel, which would allow powder from priming to get back behind the lock, which was a safety problem. I shimmed it with a piece of lead and then finally just put some JB Weld on the back side of the lock plate and filed to fit. What it really needs is the mortise set deeper and then the surface of the stock will need to be sanded down to match. This would entail a stock refinish and I'm not up for that right now.

I'd recommend buying in-person if you can. I bought mine sight unseen from another Cabela's shipped to my store.

pheenix99 said:

That's the vibe I'm getting (plus my own Pedersoli experience). Would be nice to find a used one at a slight discount.

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They do indeed come up on auction sites fairly often. Bet I've seen at least 5-6 Pedersoli BB's this year alone.

Rick

maillemaker said:

My understanding is that all of the guns manufactured in India do not have touch holes drilled. This is so they can be sold as decorations and avoid the legal problems with exporting functioning firearms.

The Indians are quite capable of manufacturing to whatever quality standards you are willing to pay for. This is not the issue.

The issue is that you are purchasing something that was not manufactured with the intent of being used as a firearm. If anything goes wrong, the manufacturer will not stand behind the product as a firearm if you used it as such.

If you are OK with taking that risk, then fine. Many people have purchased these and used them and had no problems.

Be aware that purchasing a Pedersoli does not mean it is going to be high quality either. I purchased one about 6 months ago from Cabela's when they were on sale for $999. Mine had about a .04" gap between the lock and the barrel, which would allow powder from priming to get back behind the lock, which was a safety problem. I shimmed it with a piece of lead and then finally just put some JB Weld on the back side of the lock plate and filed to fit. What it really needs is the mortise set deeper and then the surface of the stock will need to be sanded down to match. This would entail a stock refinish and I'm not up for that right now.

I'd recommend buying in-person if you can. I bought mine sight unseen from another Cabela's shipped to my store.

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Cabelas still has a webpage for the BB, but it's "No online orders" and the vibe I'm getting from their live chat....I'd have to call up individual stores because they couldn't tell me if they even had any.
Unless I trust the source, I always prefer to buy in person. With BP arms, that's not always an option. So far I've bought a 1807 Harper's Ferry pistol, an 1863 Zouave (both repros) and an M1884 trapdoor (original) sight unseen and have no complaints...outside of some minor maintenance that the M1884 required.

pheenix99 said:

Cabelas still has a webpage for the BB, but it's "No online orders" and the vibe I'm getting from their live chat....I'd have to call up individual stores because they couldn't tell me if they even had any.
Unless I trust the source, I always prefer to buy in person. With BP arms, that's not always an option. So far I've bought a 1807 Harper's Ferry pistol, an 1863 Zouave (both repros) and an M1884 trapdoor (original) sight unseen and have no complaints...outside of some minor maintenance that the M1884 required.

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Indeed, buying a black powder gun from Cabela's is a chore. I have bought 2 (Pedersoli Pennsylvania for free with Cabela's Bucks and Pedersoli Brown Bess that was on sale). In both cases, I had to have the gun delivered from another store. This is incredibly difficult.

Cabela's no longer ships black powder guns to your home. This is because a few years ago a convicted felon used a black powder percussion revolver to commit murder and they got sued. So now you have to go to the store and fill out a fake 4473 to buy a black powder gun.

First, it is hard to find the store with the item in stock. You can do it on the Cabela's web site by clicking on "check nearby stores" and manually plugging in zip codes around the country to try and find a store that shows "in stock" or "limited stock".

Then you will have to call those stores and see if they will send it to your local Cabela's. I had many who would tell me it wasn't really in stock. I had others who said it was their display model and they would not send it out. I had another manager tell me they would sell it to me, but I would have to pay with Cabela's Gift Cards! (???) My local gun department manager said basically the other managers are lazy and don't want to deal with shipping the gun to another store. I finally found a store with a manager who would sell it to me over the phone and ship it to my Cabela's.

Cabela's makes this way harder than it should be.

I'm also developing a sneaking suspicion that some importers (Midway USA, Cabela's) are probably buying "factory seconds" from the manufacturers in Italy. I now have a collection of perhaps 25 or so Italian reproduction BP guns. The ones I have bought from MidwayUSA or Cabela's have had quality problems. Just before Covid I bought a couple from EMF Company, which is owned by Pietta, and they were both fantastic and super accurate shooters. The 1858 I bought is now my go-to N-SSA competition revolver.

I have no evidence to support this suspicion but I have long wondered how Cabela's and MiwayUSA were able to sell the "exact same guns" as Dixie Gun Works, Cimarron, Taylor's & Company, etc. for much less money. My guess is these guys are striking different kinds of deals with the manufacturers.

pheenix99 said:

Huh?

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Lots of Indian guns shot every year. Where are the failures?
There are lots of horror stories
“Sure I wasn’t there
I’m sure I have an alibi
And I wouldn’t trust a fellow like me if I was you
But I have a friend
That heard it from another
And he has a friend that swears it’s all true’
All known and reported failures are misuse, mostly failure to keep clean
Any battle, including Rice,will fail if misused

tenngun said:

Lots of Indian guns shot every year. Where are the failures?
There are lots of horror stories
“Sure I wasn’t there
I’m sure I have an alibi
And I wouldn’t trust a fellow like me if I was you
But I have a friend
That heard it from another
And he has a friend that swears it’s all true’
All known and reported failures are misuse, mostly failure to keep clean
Any battle, including Rice,will fail if misused

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It’s not about failures, it’s about quality and they are often lacking it very much so.
It’s a personal preference.

However I will say like cheap tools, Indian muskets are expensive to own.

Sure the Indian guns work, but so do Harbor Freight tools, till they don't.

Having handled some Indian made muskets, I'm not inclined to buy one.

They cant compare to a bench copy, that’s for sure
However my breeches, though hand sewn, are cotton, my great coat is right style but 80-20 wool.
Cost is a factor
You do get what you pay for. But I’m danged if I can see what make a perdersoli worth twice a Loyalist Arms.
$800 vs 1800 vs $4000, the four grand beats the other two hands down, but is there as big a bang for your buck for pedi?

pheenix99 said:

That's the vibe I'm getting (plus my own Pedersoli experience). Would be nice to find a used one at a slight discount.

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Try Home

He has done work for me and is a strait shooter, he has a revolving collection of muskets and is always on the lookout for more.

MAPMFF said:

Try Home

He has done work for me and is a strait shooter, he has a revolving collection of muskets and is always on the lookout for more.

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Just shot him an email. Thanks for the suggestion.

rawoodall said:

Sidney,

Not to disagree with anything you said about current quality of Indian products, but consider that their primitive techniques may be more in line with how most things were made 200+ years ago.

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Possibly, but how many of us would truly want to own a firearm made using the techniques and metallurgy of 200 years ago.? Regardless, I'd trust a gun made here 200 years ago, more than any Indian gun made today.

Pedersoli makes a good product you will have to work on the locks because they will crush your flints that being said they're definitely worth a 10% markup over the India guns unfortunately they're 90% more expensive

Surfinator58 said:

Pedersoli makes a good product you will have to work on the locks because they will crush your flints that being said they're definitely worth a 10% markup over the India guns unfortunately they're 90% more expensive

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As long as it sparks well, I can live with a reduced flint life. Plus it'll give me more opportunities to hone my flint sharpening skills

Ive seen a couple Brown Bess’s in the last few weeks right here in the for sale section for $1100-$1200. Check it often and be quick to say “i will take it” or try posting a “wanted” add in there.

tenngun said:

They cant compare to a bench copy, that’s for sure
However my breeches, though hand sewn, are cotton, my great coat is right style but 80-20 wool.
Cost is a factor
You do get what you pay for. But I’m danged if I can see what make a perdersoli worth twice a Loyalist Arms.
$800 vs 1800 vs $4000, the four grand beats the other two hands down, but is there as big a bang for your buck for pedi?

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Agree wholeheartedly there's a couple of fellows on YouTube who have bought track of the Wolf guns which where poorly fitted and charged a premium price