Is this wear from a horse

dave b · Jun 13, 2022

Hello All
I have this old Ketland & Allport converted to percussion hanging above the fireplace and looks great.
I am now interested in researching it and find very little information,
One item I found interesting at an Auction description is the dark wear on the butt side,
It was described as the wear mark of being on a horse, That was interesting, Now i would like to know if it was used during the fur trade.
Some f the older forms on this site did help but not enough to date it.
Mine seems a simple piece.
I cannot quit get everything engraved on the plate.
Allport
Made with? maybe it says that. Seems to me Labe Wtn
Ketland & Co

It seems to have the original cleaning rod,,,( in 2 pieces)
And cannot quite make out the mark on the barrel.

Aslo interesting powder bag. I am told it was for 2 types of powder, one for the flint and one for the barrel?
Thank you for and help

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Artificer · Jun 13, 2022

That looks like oil or water damage on the right side of the butt stock.

Gus

hawkeye2 · Jun 13, 2022

That's a shot pouch. I can't see if it's divided into 2 compartments but if it is it would be to hold 2 different sizes of shot. If it's only 1 compartment then the chargers are likely 2 different sizes to give 2 different loads.

That's a great story about the stain being from a horse but I would take it with a whole shaker of salt.

I would date it post fur trade era and even as late as the late 1800s.

dave b · Jun 13, 2022

thanks, That is what i thought.
A few years ago i tried to find the value and saw one very similar at an auction,
Had to pay $60. to join and fin out what it went for.
Anyway and the stains we also very similar and was in the description it was described as from the horse.
not sure of the date of this.
I think with Alport's name on it woulkd be between 1823 to 1829
any ideas
Thanks again
Dave

hawkeye2 · Jun 13, 2022

In my opinion (FWIW) 1829 would be at least a decade and likely far more too early.

dave b · Jun 13, 2022

hawkeye2 said:
That's a shot pouch. I can't see if it's divided into 2 compartments but if it is it would be to hold 2 different sizes of shot. If it's only 1 compartment then the chargers are likely 2 different sizes to give 2 different loads.

That's a great story about the stain being from a horse but I would take it with a whole shaker of salt.

I would date it post fur trade era and even as late as the late 1800s.

Thanks for the help
The pouch does have 2 separate compartments and thanks for letting me know what is was used for.
From my research for dating it, I think with the Allport name gave me a range of 1923 to 1929.

dave b · Jun 13, 2022

hawkeye2 said:
In my opinion (FWIW) 1829 would be at least a decade and likely far more too early.

i think the company went out of business in 1829,,
maybe not true

dave b · Jun 13, 2022

search results say it went bankrupt in 1821 but kept manufacturing until 1831
interesting history

hawkeye2 · Jun 13, 2022

It's also marked Ketland & Co.. That gun is far later than the early 1830s regardless of the Allport marking. I see a plugged screw hole in front of the bolster and wonder if the plate hadn't started life as a flint plate. The gun is not a conversion but it's possible the plate was converted from a late flint era plate that was originally intended to be flint but never finished. Could you provide a photo of the complete lock?

springfield art · Jun 13, 2022

dave b said:
Allport & Ketland horse wear discoloration

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#1

Hello All
I have this old Ketland & Allport converted to percussion hanging above the fireplace and looks great.
I am now interested in researching it and find very little information,
One item I found interesting at an Auction description is the dark wear on the butt side,
It was described as the wear mark of being on a horse, That was interesting, Now i would like to know if it was used during the fur trade.
Some f the older forms on this site did help but not enough to date it.
Mine seems a simple piece.
I cannot quit get everything engraved on the plate.
Allport
Made with? maybe it says that. Seems to me Labe Wtn
Ketland & Co

It seems to have the original cleaning rod,,,( in 2 pieces)
And cannot quite make out the mark on the barrel.

Aslo interesting powder bag. I am told it was for 2 types of powder, one for the flint and one for the barrel?
Thank you for and help

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Interesting photos. I once saw in a collection a Civil War carbine that had clearly been worn by the saddle 'backrest', where it rested and moved day after day while slung on a rider's sling.

Phil Coffins · Jun 13, 2022

Nice old shotgun. The double shot pouch is also in good shape. The lock looks to have always been percussion. I see a stain but not wear.

dave b · Jun 13, 2022

thanks for your information, its very valuable and interesting to learn.

dave b · Jun 13, 2022

Phil Coffins said:
Nice old shotgun. The double shot pouch is also in good shape. The lock looks to have always been percussion. I see a stain but not wear.

good point their about not showing any wear as it should, Must be just a stain.
Thanks for the keen eye

dave b · Jun 13, 2022

this was purchased from an Estate Auction on Cape Cod Mass.
Most people were interested in the fine art. from the estate,
this item was the last item and this was during the time when all the gun laws were changing and even the police had no idea of the new laws, This being said, nobody bid on it so 25 bucks go the gun and 2 pouches.
Could be made from different parts.
Any idea on its value?

hawkeye2 · Jun 13, 2022

I enlarged one of your photos and I seem to see a plugged screw hole near the bottom of the lock directly below the one at the top where a frizzen pivot screw would have been. I think the screw hole at the bottom was for the frizzen spring. I believe the plate or the entire lock was originally intended to be flint and was converted before it was ever finished which wasn't that uncommon as it wouldn't have been scrapped. I do think the lock is original to the gun. See my post #9

Grenadier1758 · Jun 13, 2022

The ELG mark on the barrel is indicative of being a Belgian barrel.

You have two types of measures on the shot charger. One is of the Irish style most likely for shot and the other is a volume measure most likely intended for the matching charge of powder.

2 shots · Jun 13, 2022

do horses use guns??? :horseback:

ohio ramrod · Jun 13, 2022

Nice old gun. It has seen it's day and only if it could talk.

Omahkapi'si · Jun 13, 2022

I pack a rifle horseback, a 24" barrel or a 30" barrel depending on the day. For there to be marks on the stock it would have to be in a scabbard sticking out the back and rubbing the horse's butt and depending how long the rifle is that wouldn't be too practical or balanced I think. Trying to envision it hanging off the fork of the saddle somehow too but can't quite see how it would rub anywhere without getting the rider bucked off...haha....but I could be wrong. Cool rifle though. Would be great to know the real story. Thanks for posting.

GREENSWLDE · Jun 14, 2022

The Barrel stamp is Liege, Belgium. The rest most likley the same. A manton isn't a "Manton" if it's not in the records. Same for other famous makers,further ,Most Makers at that time Engraged their names Not stamped them. Made as a caplock and would respectfully suggest Belgian circa 1870-1920. Interesting history of the Ketlands in "Btitish pistols and guns. 1640-1840" by Ian Glendenning-ARCO Publishing Comany,Inc. NEW YORK. 19 Park Avenue South,New York,N.Y. 10003 Published in 1951. Facsimily copy 1 Dec. 1967 available on AMAZON. Worth any one's pennies ALLCOCK also mentioned. My own 1750's ancestoral gun maker was Sarah Pocock in Brymincham.- Birmngham.. OLD DOG.. OLD DOG..

Is this wear from a horse

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