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Where do you draw the line?

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senseisugarbear said:
Like many of you I shot and hunted with M/L long before I ever attended an oganized shoot. When I did attend, I didn't have and still don't have all the P/C H/C accoutrements. As I saw, I asked,it was usually the quiet Old Timer that would patiently fill me in. Anyone who walked up to me toTell me that I was Jonny out of step, was politely taken with a grain of salt. I learned Leather work, bead work,blacksmithing,and Teepee livin'. all things that I am profient in and still enjoy still today. But any one that considers me a Porkeater is WOEFULLY mistaken. We need to be inclusive not exclusive. The Anti's agenda doesn't splinter into groups, So enjoy at whatever level you are comfortable with.. NRA all the way....WALLY
Click to expand...
Fantastic post & perspective. Thank you
 
Just got the Townsend’s catologe in. Townsend try’s to offer correct material across colonial and federal times. He is selling a product and doesn’t do research for you. And he can’t economically turn out perfect, but you can get a good impression from Townsend’s
The front photo shows a gent, I think it’s James Townsend, but I had heard he had passed, so not sure, in good Beau Brimmal style.
God awful green linen coat, off white waist coat, linen shirt, cravats, and early style top hat. Just stepped out of a painting of the past…. Except his specs. They are not early nineteenth century. They are about thirty to forty years in the future of the rest of the out fit.
Is any group that picky?
I’ve not met them.
A cheap Indian musket is about $800. Parts to build your own is about the same. It ain’t hard to spend two grand on your gun, just for starts
Clothing styles changed fast. $500 ain’t too much.
Camp,cooking,misc gear.all adds up.
Cost is a factor, most of us ain’t rich.
I can just here Heston complaining about prices in the Mountain Man movie
How many pairs of glasses do you need?
Contact me at 555-555-1840, and for a hundred grand I’ll set you up with a kit no one could nit pick
Ah,cash only
 
Would someone demand that scopes have chromatic aberrations such as the earliest ones on muzzleloaders did?
 
I'm as HC as I feel I need to be for my own enjoyment.

When I shoot military muskets or rifle-muskets, I almost always use paper cartridges or at least loose ball and wadding on top. I won't use plastic "chargers" or speed loaders, or whatever.

I usually use cheap made in India cartridge boxes , but I have one C.D. Jarnigan repro for my .69 Smoothbore. I enjoy using my military muzzleloaders close to how they were designed to be used.

This is a hobby and I have fun, I also wear jeans or cargo pants to the range. I'm not a reenactor.

People on YouTube using patched round balls and Pyrodex in a measure in 1861 Springfield repros and talking about how they "don't know how they did this in battle" as they slam a patched ball down the pipe with a rubber mallet make my anger sharks swim
 
TFoley said:
I'm sorry? I don't bleeve that I've ever been accused of being tactful and considerate, well, in the way that you mean, anyhow. I'm what used to be called a 'straight-talker' and if my posts somehow offend you [and please note that so far, nobody else seems to have gotten their hair on fire from my post], please feel free to do one or all of three things -

1. Ignore it, after all, what does HE know, stuck over there on a foggy island where it rains all the time and people in rags till the soil they don't own for those who do, and worse still, nobody can have a gun unless they are a duke or somethin'.

OR

2. Press that handy little 'ignore' button' and be forever spared anything from me that might just cause you some kind of offence.

OR

3. Add something useful to the thread in support of, or in rebuttal of, anything I've written, all of which, BTW, is nothing less than entirely true.
Click to expand...

My sincere apologies if I offended you, we Australians are well known for our sarcastic wit.
 
TFoley said:
Twelve pages and 225 posts, some of them downright strange, TBH, especially those about the people who want to be 'identified' as a trumpet or fur-covered windmill or some such oddness.

As you've probably guessed by now, none of this shenanigins takes place over here in UK, at least, I've never found any. Sure, there are some serious reenactment groups who model their activities on the English Civil War and later conflicts and the styles of dress and weapons used at the time, but none of the antics that some of you have encountered.

Are we missing out here? Well, of course we are, mainly by not having your rich heritage of recent history to revive. You relive battles of your recent civil war, well, not far from where we live in one direction is the site of the Battle of Naseby, fought in the last English Civil war of the 1640's. And a little further away, the site of the battle where the last king to die in action fell, surrounded by treachery, at Bosworth Field in 1485 - seven years before Columbus sailed.

Both of these momentous events are reenacted, but without the rancour and nit-picking that seems to spoil so much of YOUR reenactment activities.
Click to expand...
Americans, especially in the Northeast, will take any fun event and suck the life out of it , or people are just idiots

I tried doing some "Living History" and got tired of arguing with know it all's that told me I shouldn't have a flintlock as a Civil War period reenactor. After explaining that I was a Militiaman and flintlock muskets were in fact, used throughout the war ....after a dozen times, the fun had been sucked out of all of it and I stopped doing it. Every person that watched "Glory" or "Gettysburg" one time is suddenly a Historian.

I don't get the Thread Counters and people who complain. But this is probably part of the reason why reenacting is dying in America.

I was actually much better received at a military show and had a much better time, and the kids loved me, when I was wearing a really good Afrika Korp uniform . Everyone wanted pics with me and the German reenactors are always a favorite here in the US at WWII Expos . It's the Civil War reenacting that is always notoriously filled with drama, snobbery and politics.
 
I have another viewpoint, as far as "Historical Correctness", as to what really is Historically Correct and how far do we stretch the line?

If it is "Historically Possible" , is it OK?

P53 Enfield Rifle-Muskets were used in a reserve and rear-echelon role by some smaller nations past the WWI era. So where do we even measure the end of the "Muzzleloading Era" . There is no clear delineation , in my opinion.

Will people in 150 years want to live like us in simulated 20th and 21st century "Living History" or do we just think the whole Mountain Man and Wilderness thing is cool because of movies? There is probably little that would make any of us want to live like that all the time in this day and age. It's fun to be a weekend warrior though and be HC at a Rendezvous.
 
TFoley said:
I'm sorry? I don't bleeve that I've ever been accused of being tactful and considerate, well, in the way that you mean, anyhow. I'm what used to be called a 'straight-talker' and if my posts somehow offend you [and please note that so far, nobody else seems to have gotten their hair on fire from my post], please feel free to do one or all of three things -

1. Ignore it, after all, what does HE know, stuck over there on a foggy island where it rains all the time and people in rags till the soil they don't own for those who do, and worse still, nobody can have a gun unless they are a duke or somethin'.

OR

2. Press that handy little 'ignore' button' and be forever spared anything from me that might just cause you some kind of offence.

OR

3. Add something useful to the thread in support of, or in rebuttal of, anything I've written, all of which, BTW, is nothing less than entirely true.
Click to expand...
 
TFoley said:
I'm sorry? I don't bleeve that I've ever been accused of being tactful and considerate, well, in the way that you mean, anyhow. I'm what used to be called a 'straight-talker' and if my posts somehow offend you [and please note that so far, nobody else seems to have gotten their hair on fire from my post], please feel free to do one or all of three things -

1. Ignore it, after all, what does HE know, stuck over there on a foggy island where it rains all the time and people in rags till the soil they don't own for those who do, and worse still, nobody can have a gun unless they are a duke or somethin'.

OR

2. Press that handy little 'ignore' button' and be forever spared anything from me that might just cause you some kind of offence.

OR

3. Add something useful to the thread in support of, or in rebuttal of, anything I've written, all of which, BTW, is nothing less than entirely true.
Click to expand...
Hear,Hear, Tom and also your previous post. Just up he road from our old factory(an old steam tram shed) their is a Tudor Hall that was Royalist during our own confict. Half the way up the Main stair case one of the Newel post has evidence of the rebellion as it is partially shot away by one to Ollies Balls. The damage and it is believed The Ball has been ever preserved. Bosworth is just down the Road from here where there is a Large visitor's centre with regular re-enactments. Richard the 111rd was rediscovered in Leicester near by a short while ago.
I used to use the Pub in Naseby,when I lived in Northants.There is a Stone to commerate the Battle,in a field nearby.. OLD DOG..
 
SDSmlf said:
I play by the rules where I shoot and hunt, however, lines in the sand can be funny things and cause unintended consequences.

Got invited to ‘blackpowder’ hunting club (primary rules, actually written down, were essentially blackpowder only, no modern guns, Civil War or earlier guns only) and decided to bring my original Smith Carbine. While putting the Smith in it’s case at the end of the first day, the Grand Poobah of the group noticed the break open action and had a meltdown. I was breaking one of the club’s cardinal rules with my breech loading ‘modern’ gun on my very first hunt there. The gentleman who had brought me as his guest made the comment that I had the only original pre 1865 gun in camp, as everyone else had TCs, Lymans or CVAs. Didn’t matter, because everyone knew it was a ‘muzzleloader’ only club..... Buddy and I packed up our stuff and left. Got invited back a couple of times after the ‘misunderstanding’, but didn’t go. Group lost their lease a year two later when they could not attract enough like minded high drama members to keep things affordable. They had a nice piece of hunting land.
Click to expand...
If the rules stated muzzleloaders only, you were in the wrong regardless if your gun was period correct. Would it have been okay if guys showed up with Henry's, Burnsides, or other CW cartridge gun? I think not.
 
Stantheman86 said:
I have another viewpoint, as far as "Historical Correctness", as to what really is Historically Correct and how far do we stretch the line?

If it is "Historically Possible" , is it OK?

P53 Enfield Rifle-Muskets were used in a reserve and rear-echelon role by some smaller nations past the WWI era. So where do we even measure the end of the "Muzzleloading Era" . There is no clear delineation , in my opinion.

Will people in 150 years want to live like us in simulated 20th and 21st century "Living History" or do we just think the whole Mountain Man and Wilderness thing is cool because of movies? There is probably little that would make any of us want to live like that all the time in this day and age. It's fun to be a weekend warrior though and be HC at a Rendezvous.
Click to expand...
That becomes a slippery slope. They could of sewed up Levi 501 jeans in colonial times materially.
Togas pre date rendezvous so should be acceptable right?
On the other hand calzones weren’t part of colonial diet, but meat pies were. Plain folded dough with meat and cheese or veggie fillings folded like a taco and baked, but not a calzone.
No togas, but plenty of match coats (don’t call it a great kilt)
I went to an 1812 event. The captain for the event said my coat buttons were colonial not federal period. I was there as a civilian, coming up as part of the militia.
He was right, as my coat was cr 1800-1830 short woolen coat, not unlike a civilian working man’s coat of 1770 or a shell jacket of 1860. The upright collar it’s mark for federal times.
But the buttons were colonial.
I was 62 at the time, meaning I would have been born about 1750.
When I bought buttons they would have been colonial style.
Buttons don’t take a lot of wear.
I recall my mother saving buttons as I was growing up. She made clothing and reused buttons.
I don’t think some one threw out buttons when clothing was worn out.
My answer was of course There colonial buttons. Wife made my coat new two years ago, took buttons off my old one. Three or four times now since we was married. Waste nought want nought.
Did some one join the militia with a fifty year old gun? I’m hard pressed to think no,
Did a Scotsman come to America wear a great kilt?
Hmmm
I’m going to doubt it.
So I look at my coat with the wrong buttons.
Is it HC, or am I justifying something I did.
Would you see a dog lock musket during the revolution? How about MM period
Slippery slope
 
My Civil War Drawers /long underwear are supposed to have literally from the waist down open so when you lift your leg and such you don’t rip them out but I put buttons down the front because I some times wear them around the house in the evening like sweat pants. I know this is not period correct but I did
use the right tin buttons. LOL…:thumb:
 
Reading these comments on Historical Correctness, putting that together with other BP pages it’s not surprising rendezvous and re-enactments have gone down hill back East. At most Rhondys in the far west there’s always a primitive and Tin Tepee area. As a rule the Tin Tepee area outnumbers the primitive and we really don’t care. In any group walking down the trail walk there might a shooter in blue jeans and tee shirt and no one cares. We are out there to have fun and sling lead down range. Perhaps that’s why we don’t have any re-enactments out here. BUT the Rhondys are going strong. 6 within an hour’s drive. 15 Rhondys in several hours. Another big difference most have zero tourists, but we invite those who may be interested in our community.
Doc,
 
Some time back I was invited to a "meet" but was also told that if I did not pass historical muster that I would have to leave at 10AM so as to not offend the "purists".
So instead of becoming a paying member of the group which I wanted to join and volunteer for range upkeep, etc.....
I gave them nothing - not my time - not my money.
These are the A-holes that drive 60k pickups to the matches and live in modern houses with AC-central heat etc.......
This is the reason so many groups have faded from existence, become smaller and smaller and eventually faded into oblivion.
Three groups I have ventured out to shoot with and enjoy like minded company - could only raise 4-8 people for a club meeting and shoot.
Not much of club is it? Most folks don'y need or want to play dress up in order to go out and enjoy the sport.
We enjoy the sport as a hobby - not a way of life.
Unfortunately it's the self centered fascist perfectionists that are destroying the organized enjoyment of being a black powder enthusiast.
 
Griz44Mag said:
Some time back I was invited to a "meet" but was also told that if I did not pass historical muster that I would have to leave at 10AM so as to not offend the "purists".
So instead of becoming a paying member of the group which I wanted to join and volunteer for range upkeep, etc.....
I gave them nothing - not my time - not my money.
These are the A-holes that drive 60k pickups to the matches and live in modern houses with AC-central heat etc.......
This is the reason so many groups have faded from existence, become smaller and smaller and eventually faded into oblivion.
Three groups I have ventured out to shoot with and enjoy like minded company - could only raise 4-8 people for a club meeting and shoot.
Not much of club is it? Most folks don'y need or want to play dress up in order to go out and enjoy the sport.
We enjoy the sport as a hobby - not a way of life.
Unfortunately it's the self centered fascist perfectionists that are destroying the organized enjoyment of being a black powder enthusiast.
Click to expand...
Then just don't go. They have their rules and if that causes you to need mydol, don't go. If you go to someone's event and don't like the rules, leave. Make your own event. I get so tired of the snarky, offended crowd.

Anyway, how many non-injuns were there in the mountains during the trapping hey day? Not that many. Most of this is cosplay in buckskin AND THAT'S FINE. Like the SCA, it's a modern recreated society. Just breathe and stop being offended. Don't come to something and try and change it to your way. Ugh.
 
SDSmlf said:
Got invited to ‘blackpowder’ hunting club (primary rules, actually written down, were essentially blackpowder only, no modern guns, Civil War or earlier guns only) and decided to bring my original Smith Carbine. While putting the Smith in it’s case at the end of the first day, the Grand Poobah of the group noticed the break open action and had a meltdown. I was breaking one of the club’s cardinal rules with my breech loading ‘modern’ gun on my very first hunt there.
Click to expand...
Mr. Flintlock said:
If the rules stated muzzleloaders only, you were in the wrong regardless if your gun was period correct. Would it have been okay if guys showed up with Henry's, Burnsides, or other CW cartridge gun? I think not.
Click to expand...
If you read my post that you quoted you might see that the written rules I referenced stated ‘blackpowder only, no modern guns, Civil War or earlier guns only’, with no mention of muzzleloaders. Appears you believe ‘blackpowder only’ means ‘muzzleloaders only’.
 
senseisugarbear said:
Wonder how my Henry would have been received.....just sayin'
Click to expand...
I pretty sure Custer didn’t receive the Henry all that well in the summer of ‘76…. I have handled an original Henry and would love the chance to shoot one, but doubt that will happen. The 44 rim fire ammunition it uses is difficult to come by. And back to my earlier post about the Smith, it’s an original and I have original ammunition for it. Would think it meet the Civil War or earlier requirement. Oh, the Henry was also used during the Civil War, though in limited numbers.
 
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