The Double Double

Cutfinger said:

Maybe you are correct , Caplock shotguns started being used in England about 1835 , which is the time period for this gun , it was a new fangled idea which needed some time to catch on. Single Muzzle loading guns were usually carried and loaded by the shooter . By the 1850's the cartridge guns were making an appearance and it wasn't until the 1880s that the big shoots really got going and pairs arrived on the scene . I wonder if the reason it has had little use is that it was quickly out dated .
By the way I have owned rook rifles in various calibers by all the makers you mention and a few more .

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Well I think my explanation is more too the building of this gun , English gun making from 1800 had a fair number of patents registered at the patent office that greatly increased through the percussion and into the breech loader period. Lets not forget that most types of ignition continued well into other periods if we take the flintlock many were still been made in the 1830 plus the same with the tube lock which some were still made in the 1850 especially for the wildfowler also percussion sxs shotguns still been built in the 1910 for the market also Belgian pinfires till 1930s.
Has for the pairs and trios of percussion guns these were made for driven bird shoots about the 1840,s by makers like Lancaster, Boss , and Purdy you will find that some are minus a ramrod and come in a mahogany case From the 1970,s I did in the excess of 25 years researching English gun making more so in my part of England for which I made my own directory this was mainly done because far to many authors of gun books were far from the truth so I never go by all that is written in books .
Feltwad

cornstalk said:

So here she is. The Double Double (for lack of a better description). A double 20 smoothbore with double ignition; flint and percussion cap. Made by Jones (I think John Jones) of Birmingham London. I'm guessing in the 1820's. I found records of Jones buying a shop in 1817. He died in 1837.

It was certainly used but is still in excellent condition.

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If you look closely at this next picture you'll see a plate that is pushed forward or back to cover/uncover the barrel's flash hole depending on whether shooting cap or flint.

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The scroll work is beautiful and intricate.

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This next picture has me stumped. When I first saw this I thought a shoulder strap attachment. Yea that's not what this is because it retains the barrel in the stock. Quick takedown maybe?

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Even has the original ram rod.

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I am honored to be the current caretaker of this gun. And there it is, this gun will outlive me and hopefully those after me. I'm amazed at the genius, creativity and talent that people had using what we'd consider "old fashioned" hand tools.

And for me the most important statement this gun makes is just because you've never heard of it before, or it isn't in primary documentation, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

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Where did I find it? A gentleman who comes across pristine and/or unique weapons.

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Truly amazed. Don’t even know what to say

pamtnman said:

And just to add a little bit of uncontroversial historic reference here, the British made the best sporting firearms bar none from the 1750s through the 1930s.

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Messrs Holland and Holland, Churchill, Purdey, Boss, Cogswell & Harrison, Rigby, William Evans and others that don't immediately come to my aging mind would strongly disagree with you, and say that a London gun or rifle is STLL the best in the world today.

Cutfinger said:

Manton's makers mark was a rather bumpy looking crown with 3 small circles just above the spike . Nothing underneath . The Brits are still hand stamping barrels , proving involves precisely measuring all barrel dimensions , then firing a proof load , then re measuring to make sure there hasn't been any expansion . I believe that US companies proof test their own barrels , consumer protection laws and litigious Lawyers make sure the proofing is through .

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Which is why every single US-made firearm has to be subjected to proof in the national proof house(s) of the country into which it is being imported.

TFoley said:

Messrs Holland and Holland, Churchill, Purdey, Boss, Cogswell & Harrison, Rigby, William Evans and others that don't immediately come to my aging mind would strongly disagree with you, and say that a London gun or rifle is STLL the best in the world today.

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And now Charles Lancaster has been reborn. I’d say that if we are talking strictly about double rifles, then yes, I’ll agree with you. But at this point in metallurgy and cnc machining and cadcam design, pretty much all the good makers are on the same level. No one particular maker has special and unique access to some limited material, like they did in the past. Once rifle making became about just bolt actions and single shots, unless it’s a Farquarson action, a Dakota is the same as a Holland as a Purdey as a Skuhl etc Heck, the Ruger #1 action is probably stronger and more reliable than any similar product ever produced in England. And a Ruger #1 is probably just as accurate if not more than a British rifle today. Anyhow, I limited my adulation of all guns British/ Scottish to the double rifle period, which mostly ended in the 1930s. DRs are not completely dead, thankfully, but they no longer hold the dominant role they had. Update is I’m in the market for a flintlock British sporting rifle in larger bore, because the wallop of the early season .62 is just too much to walk away from when flintlock season arrives here in PA. I’ve fallen for that power.

cornstalk said:

So here she is. The Double Double (for lack of a better description). A double 20 smoothbore with double ignition; flint and percussion cap. Made by Jones (I think John Jones) of Birmingham London. I'm guessing in the 1820's. I found records of Jones buying a shop in 1817. He died in 1837.

It was certainly used but is still in excellent condition.

View attachment 106656

If you look closely at this next picture you'll see a plate that is pushed forward or back to cover/uncover the barrel's flash hole depending on whether shooting cap or flint.

View attachment 106657

The scroll work is beautiful and intricate.

View attachment 106658

View attachment 106659

This next picture has me stumped. When I first saw this I thought a shoulder strap attachment. Yea that's not what this is because it retains the barrel in the stock. Quick takedown maybe?

View attachment 106660

Even has the original ram rod.

View attachment 106661

I am honored to be the current caretaker of this gun. And there it is, this gun will outlive me and hopefully those after me. I'm amazed at the genius, creativity and talent that people had using what we'd consider "old fashioned" hand tools.

And for me the most important statement this gun makes is just because you've never heard of it before, or it isn't in primary documentation, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

View attachment 106664

Where did I find it? A gentleman who comes across pristine and/or unique weapons.

Click to expand...

This is a beautiful shotgun!! I think that is a barrel wedge that allows removal of the forearm and a quick takedown, as you suggested.

Jayhawk Dan

Finally got around to shooting it today for the first time. Six shots total. 60 grains of FFFg. Tried two different patch sizes, .010 and .015. Did four shots with the flintlocks and two with the percussion locks. 25 yards.

Right barrel shoots to the left side of the target, left barrel to the right side. I was aiming right above the heart.

IF the barrels are regulated the accuracy should improve by me shooting off hand allowing the gun to roll as regulated doubles are designed to do.

It's also possible the accuracy will improve with a different load or patch size. The round balls I ran from a Revolutionary war era mold without a sprue cutter so there's that as well.

Or this might just be how it shoots. I'll play with it some more later in the year. Absolutely love the gun.

Great fun , you may find the regulation changes if you have your hand on top of the bag and holding the fore end . The British gunmakers traditionally regulate their doubles from a standing rest with their left hand gripping the fore end . The barrels could be shooting away from the touching surfaces .

@Cutfinger Yea I realized that AFTER I finished shooting. No different then shooting off shooting sticks. It was a long hot day. 65. I was burning up. ;-)

Glad to see your gun is shooting OK . but may I say no offence in know way would I shoot round ball from that gun it was not made for ball, but for game .shooting with shot. Shooting ball will put a lot of strain on the gun it is a shotgun for shot for which it would have been regulated when built
Feltwad

I could not see the DBL. percussion firing, both were flint, as I can see? did I miss something?

What a difference between flint and cap! Great video showing that difference. Beautiful cabin, property and gun! More videos please!

" Right barrel shoots to the left side of the target, left barrel to the right side."

Sounds like your gun is regulated to a range shorter than 25 yards.

toot said:

I could not see the DBL. percussion firing, both were flint, as I can see? did I miss something?

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Take a better look when the plate that pulls out to cover the pan and allows firing access to the touch hole when firing the percussion cap will allow some of the ignition to escape from the pan. When the plate is pushed back to seal of the percussion this allows a open pan for shooting flint a straight forward combination of a flint percussion ignition
Feltwad

Perhaps that ‘takedown’ feature you thought might be a strap attachment, be a holder/retainer for a nipple cover? Many Civil War era perc guns had them affixed, they look like a modern sling swivel stud, like the ‘modern’ version shown.

wow! What an interesting gun ,congrats on your find. It is a beauty .

toot said:

I could not see the DBL. percussion firing, both were flint, as I can see? did I miss something?

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Yes , Cornstalk fired both . it is on the tape .

Too cool! Please keep the reports coming.

Very nice. Good for you.

Very nice.