Crockett rifle cleanout screw

This is just a matter of curiosity about one aspect of cleaning the Traditions Crockett rifle. I'm sure that most people have never noticed this because it requires a bit of excessive inspection of the barrel, but I do wonder if anyone has noticed it and done anything about it ...

To begin, I shoot with genuine black powder (Swiss) and clean the rifle in the "old way": Remove the barrel, bucket of hot water with Simple Green, flush the barrel, etc. Not a problem. Works great and is much easier/quicker/more effective than you might think once you develop the habit. In fact, this is the method described by Traditions in their "Safety & Instruction Manual," though that manual is generic across all their sidelock muzzleloaders, mentions nothing specific about the Crockett, and in the cleaning instructions makes no mention of either the nipple or the cleanout screw.

The cleanout screw (an M4-0.7 x 6mm slotted pan head) is on the opposite side of the barrel from the nipple. It's inaccurately referred to as a "Tang Screw (Side)" in the Traditions Crockett Rifle schematic: it's not in the tang!

Because I'm a bit compulsive about my firearms and tools in general, I recently got curious about what all this looked like, and got out my little (Ebay) endoscope. Everything looked as expected EXCEPT, the cleanout screw protrudes noticeably into the combustion chamber (for lack of a better term). I haven't tried to measure this exactly, it looks as though about 3mm of the screw is sticking out into the chamber. You can see the threads quite clearly.

I don't think there's any danger to this, but I do wonder about degradation of the end threads on the screw over time since they're exposed to the ignition of the powder. My guess is that many (most?) Crockett owners won't care about this -- very likely because (my guess again, but from threads I've read) few of them ever remove the cleanout screw. On the other hand, maybe it just doesn't matter because I DO remove and clean the screw every time I fire the gun. And I guess that the portion of the screw sticking out into the combustion chamber doesn't have any effect on combustion of the powder.

Has anyone else noticed this? Any thoughts? I've been thinking about filing the screw down so it doesn't protrude, but looking at what I've just written here, I now wonder if it's worth the effort.

The next time you take the screw out, file down the end so it doesn't protrude into the powder space. Over time this protrusion could trap fouling and cause future ignition problems. If it was my gun, I would file down the end of the screw, then install it with red locktite and never remove it again.

That was pretty much my thinking. I'm with you on everything up to "and never remove it again" -- because it IS a cleanout screw, and removing it really seems to ease the cleanout process. So it's pretty much like the typical cleanout screws you find on the lock side near the nipple. It's just on the other side.

But I'll pay close attention to whether removing it really does contribute anything. As part of my investigation I discovered that I could actually get a nylon .30 cal brush into that chamber without it jamming. So maybe trimming the screw and just leaving it in is the better approach.

Remove it, trim it, put some anti-seize on it and put it back. Never say never when you think you’ll never want to take it out again. Curiosity will get the best of you one day lol.

TreeMan said:

Curiosity will get the best of you one day lol.

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Definitely true. But luckily I have sufficient technology to make observation possible without removing it, and so nothing really to gain by removing it except to make pumping the barrel a bit less of a pain. It really is impressive to see how much vacuum is created in that small diameter barrel, even with the nipple removed. For a while I thought that the barrel diameter was decreasing near the muzzle, but then realized it was just the vacuum from pulling the rod/patch back so fast.

It is a manufacturing expedient; not a cleanout. Shorten it, reinstall and leave it alone.

Okay, now that triggers my curiosity. In what way is it a manufacturing expedient? What does it facilitate in the manufacturing of the barrel?

I'll grant you that it does seem a bit odd to put a "cleanout" screw there. And it's not clear what genuine utility it gains you. And it would seem more "natural" to put a cleanout screw where it normally is on other guns (on the nipple side with direct access into the combustion path from the nipple). But I don't see the function of that hole for making the barrel. It seems as though it could only be for drilling across into the nipple side. So is that what they really do -- drill down from the nipple and then drill into that from the opposite side to complete the channel to the bore?

I guess that makes sense of it. But it does seem a little nutty.

Pete G said:

It is a manufacturing expedient; not a cleanout. Shorten it, reinstall and leave it alone.

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You may be correct!

Likewise, those so-called “freeze-out” plugs we see in automotive engine blocks are really the means to remove the sand from the water jacket when the block casting is made.

doubleset said:

Okay, now that triggers my curiosity. In what way is it a manufacturing expedient? What does it facilitate in the manufacturing of the barrel?

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How do you connect two holes when both are in planes that never intersect? Like the barrel bore and the nipple hole? No one has come up with a functional around the corner drill for connecting the chambered breech to the hole for the nipple. Unfortunately, drill holes tend to run straight, not curved.

When TC first started making their barrels they had the access hole on the nipple side of the breech plug, and many decided this was a convent clean out hole. TC had so many warranty claims because people were damaging the screw or screw hole, that they moved the screw to the opposite side of the breech plug and ground the slot off the screw so people who shouldn’t own tools would stop messing with them.

SDSmlf said:

TC had so many warranty claims because people were damaging the screw or screw hole, that they moved the screw to the opposite side of the breech plug and ground the slot off the screw so people who shouldn’t own tools would stop messing with them.

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Yeah ... my next question was going to be "So why did Traditions put a REMOVABLE machine screw in that hole?" One answer to this, I suppose, is "easy and less costly" (though putting in a "one way" screw would be about the same cost, I'd think). But another is that it provides access "just in case" there were some condition they might be able to "fix" by getting across from there to the nipple side. Kind of hard to imagine that.

On the other hand, it MAY really be a cleanout screw ...

I have to say that I think there is some utility to the "cleanout screw" in the Lyman GPR I have since it allows you to get a pipe cleaner in there and clean out residue that you just really can't get out any other way. And Lyman DOES list that explicitly as a "cleanout" screw. So at least in some cases, these things that are referred to as "cleanout screws" appear in fact to be cleanout screws.

Oh ... and sometimes the freeze plugs are really freeze plugs. And just because it may now be referred to as a "core plug" or some such doesn't mean that it's function may be as a freeze plug and that it's intended as this. My Yanmar 1700 has one -- certainly in part because it's often the case that water is used as the coolant, and if you accidentally leave it in in the wrong climate, then ... well ... it's good to have a $3.00 freeze plug you can replace.

I find your question very interesting since my Crockett had no such screw. But it was an early one with the 3/4" barrel so maybe that's the difference. Also good advice has been posted above.

doubleset said:

Oh ... and sometimes the freeze plugs are really freeze plugs. And just because it may now be referred to as a "core plug" or some such doesn't mean that it's function may be as a freeze plug and that it's intended as this. My Yanmar 1700 has one -- certainly in part because it's often the case that water is used as the coolant, and if you accidentally leave it in in the wrong climate, then ... well ... it's good to have a $3.00 freeze plug you can replace.

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conversely you could make the case for Lyman using the term "clean out screw" because it has become of common use.

hanshi said:

I find your question very interesting since my Crockett had no such screw. But it was an early one with the 3/4" barrel so maybe that's the difference.

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Then (assuming that the point of that hole was to aid in the machining of the flash channel for the cap) that an alternative manufacturing process was employed. So is there anything on around the nipple hole on yours suggesting that they got at things from that side?

doubleset said:

Yeah ... my next question was going to be "So why did Traditions put a REMOVABLE machine screw in that hole?" One answer to this, I suppose, is "easy and less costly" (though putting in a "one way" screw would be about the same cost, I'd think). But another is that it provides access "just in case" there were some condition they might be able to "fix" by getting across from there to the nipple side. Kind of hard to imagine that.

On the other hand, it MAY really be a cleanout screw ...

I have to say that I think there is some utility to the "cleanout screw" in the Lyman GPR I have since it allows you to get a pipe cleaner in there and clean out residue that you just really can't get out any other way. And Lyman DOES list that explicitly as a "cleanout" screw. So at least in some cases, these things that are referred to as "cleanout screws" appear in fact to be cleanout screws.

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If removing that screw and reinstalling it repeatedly works for you, great. It can be called whatever you want to call it. It’s just that stuck/damaged ‘clean out screw’ is a reoccurring topic on this and other muzzleloading forums. As a general rule I can not recommend removing it as a normal maintenance item. The screws are of low grade steel and easily damaged. Most manufactures, particularly the ones you mentioned, are always looking for a way to save a few pennies and leave no cost savings rock unturned.

I have a question for you. Someone recently dropped off a gun with a damaged ‘clean out screw’ and ask if I could remove it for them. Owner said they always lubed the screw, but for some reason it would not come out. How do you suggest removing the screw? Here is a photograph of it.

deerstalkert said:

conversely you could make the case for Lyman using the term "clean out screw" because it has become of common use.

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Well, you could make that case, but it would be really odd for Lyman to use that term for something they did not intend to be a cleanout screw. It might, in addition, give their attorneys fits since it would suggest directly to the customer a functionality that wasn't intended (or encouraged). So I'm not so taken with that idea. On the other hand, the screw that Lyman actually uses (at least in mine) is so small and easy to drop/lose, you may be right. It's one of the headless hexhead screws. I replaced it with a more usable one. And, again, I do find that it offers some obvious utility for cleaning that area. Who knows? If I get a chance, I may give these guys (Lyman, Traditions) a call and just ask them if these are really intended for "cleanout" purposes.

Having turned wrenches for a living and having lived up north where it really gets cold I can say that I have seen a lot of blocks cracked from freezing with the "freeze plugs" intact. They just don't work in that capacity reliably not to say that they haven't at times.

The passage from the nipple to the bore is generally drilled from the right or left side and the hole is closed with a screw. If it were possible to eliminate drilling and tapping the hole and installing a screw you can believe the manufacturer would go for it to save expenses. They didn't put it there for use in cleaning the gun.

SDSmlf said:

I have a question for you. Someone recently dropped off a gun with a damaged ‘clean out screw’ and ask if I could remove it for them. Owner said they always lubed the screw, but for some reason it would not come out. How do you suggest removing the screw?

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(I do, by the way, agree with your assessment of the quality of all these screws -- and in fact of most screws I've seen on these rifles. I replaced the tang screw because I could see that removing the barrel to do the standard cleaning would rather quickly result in a bad situation there.)

I think I'd suggest leaving this particular screw where it is. Otherwise, I'd start with some PB Blaster over several days and see if I could carefully remove the screw either by working on the slot a bit and using a GOOD screwdriver (probably would be fruitless on that one), or using a screw remover (which MIGHT work). The final alternative, of course would be to drill it out and re-tap the hole and put a larger screw in it.

So what did YOU do?

hanshi said:

I find your question very interesting since my Crockett had no such screw.

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doubleset said:

Then (assuming that the point of that hole was to aid in the machining of the flash channel for the cap) that an alternative manufacturing process was employed. So is there anything on around the nipple hole on yours suggesting that they got at things from that side?

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I have seen many barrels where the access screw is barely if at all visible. Here is one easy to see, but you can also see the manufacturer had no intention of it being removable as a clean out screw.

doubleset said:

I think I'd suggest leaving this particular screw where it is. Otherwise, I'd start with some PB Blaster over several days and see if I could carefully remove the screw either by working on the slot a bit and using a GOOD screwdriver (probably would be fruitless on that one), or using a screw remover (which MIGHT work). The final alternative, of course would be to drill it out and re-tap the hole and put a larger screw in it.

So what did YOU do?

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Used a Bridgeport. Used LocTite on the replacement screw and left it flush with breech plug with no screwdriver slot.