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Issue with an original Belgian cap lock.

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Ironoxide

40 Cal
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
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Hi,

I have an original Belgian smoothbore gun I posted more about in the firearm I'd forum. It has a problem with a lock I thought I would have more luck posting here about. The lock was made in Liège by George Laloux. His locks are said to be of good middle range in quality. Utilitarian, not expensive nor cheap.

The problems are two. One, it is possible to pull the trigger and drop the hammer from the "safety notch". Second is that if a trigger is pulled slowly (when clocked fully) it drops to the safety position. A strong quick pull is required to fire the gun. I don't really know if this is not normal for such period locks...

I'm attaching close up photos of the lock internals.
20210617_084652.jpg
20210617_084629.jpg
20210617_084612.jpg

(sorry for upside down photos, they look fine on my mobile phone, I have no idea why they show upside down here)

As you can see the seer's tip is a bit rounded. If this was a modern repro I would've filed it and reharden, but I'm reluctant to do that with an original lock. Does anyone have any other ideas? Maybe spare parts from another lock would fit? Alternatively do you think I should just leave it be and enjoy it as is?
 
It looks to me that the tip of the "safety notch" has been broken off. This can be repaired by welding a small bead across the tip and filing to shape. Shotgun triggers, in practice, are not pulled slowly as with a rifle but are pulled suddenly and strongly. If it were mine I'd leave it alone.
 
Hi,

I have an original Belgian smoothbore gun I posted more about in the firearm I'd forum. It has a problem with a lock I thought I would have more luck posting here about. The lock was made in Liège by George Laloux. His locks are said to be of good middle range in quality. Utilitarian, not expensive nor cheap.

The problems are two. One, it is possible to pull the trigger and drop the hammer from the "safety notch". Second is that if a trigger is pulled slowly (when clocked fully) it drops to the safety position. A strong quick pull is required to fire the gun. I don't really know if this is not normal for such period locks...

I'm attaching close up photos of the lock internals.
View attachment 81617View attachment 81618View attachment 81619
(sorry for upside down photos, they look fine on my mobile phone, I have no idea why they show upside down here)

As you can see the seer's tip is a bit rounded. If this was a modern repro I would've filed it and reharden, but I'm reluctant to do that with an original lock. Does anyone have any other ideas? Maybe spare parts from another lock would fit? Alternatively do you think I should just leave it be and enjoy it as is?

Hi "Rusty,"

First of all, those are GREAT pictures and just what is needed to diagnose the problems in that lock!

First problem of being able to pull the trigger enough to get it to go off on half cock. This and people slamming on the back of a ML Hammer or Flint Cock are the ABSOLUTE WRONG ways to check the Half Cock Notch!!!! You will OFTEN SCREW UP the Half Cock or Sear Face or both when you do that. The correct way to check half cock is put the Hammer or Flint Cock on Half Cock, turn the gun upside down (muzzle pointing down) and carefully rest the weight of the gun on your trigger finger on the trigger. If the Half Cock holds the Hammer or Cock, it is plenty strong enough to do its job in case the Sear slips off the Full Cock notch. OK, I will now hop down off my Soap Box!! Grin!

The Half Cock Notch protrudes WAY too far from the rest of the body of the Tumbler and much further than the full cock notch. It looks like it has already caused damage to the Sear Nose, because the Sear Nose has been bashing into it. You will need to reduce that projection Length of the Half Cock Notch.

The Full Cock Notch is also angling too far to the rear. Though safe, you probably can see the Hammer going backwards or cocking MORE as you pull the trigger. This makes the Trigger feel harder and harder as you pull it.

Do you have experience with hand tools so you might fix this yourself?

Gus
 
Hi "Rusty,"

First of all, those are GREAT pictures and just what is needed to diagnose the problems in that lock!

First problem of being able to pull the trigger enough to get it to go off on half cock. This and people slamming on the back of a ML Hammer or Flint Cock are the ABSOLUTE WRONG ways to check the Half Cock Notch!!!! You will OFTEN SCREW UP the Half Cock or Sear Face or both when you do that. The correct way to check half cock is put the Hammer or Flint Cock on Half Cock, turn the gun upside down (muzzle pointing down) and carefully rest the weight of the gun on your trigger finger on the trigger. If the Half Cock holds the Hammer or Cock, it is plenty strong enough to do its job in case the Sear slips off the Full Cock notch. OK, I will now hop down off my Soap Box!! Grin!

The Half Cock Notch protrudes WAY too far from the rest of the body of the Tumbler and much further than the full cock notch. It looks like it has already caused damage to the Sear Nose, because the Sear Nose has been bashing into it. You will need to reduce that projection Length of the Half Cock Notch.

The Full Cock Notch is also angling too far to the rear. Though safe, you probably can see the Hammer going backwards or cocking MORE as you pull the trigger. This makes the Trigger feel harder and harder as you pull it.

Do you have experience with hand tools so you might fix this yourself?

Gus
Thank you that is a very thorough diagnosis :) I do have experience with and I have various hand tools including needle files. I also have a tig welder and I can weld small stuff with it.

It is a heavy gun. Definitely not just for shot. The barrel was made to shoot slugs/round balls as well. I performed the safety notch test you described. Unfortunately the cock fell when I haven't even rested half of the gun's weight on the trigger. So it is quite weak. Comparable to a normal force required for a "typical" trigger pull (if there is such a thing).

Now comes the hardest part. Deciding if I should mess with it, or just accept it as is.

The key in making this decision for me is whether this is in its original condition or maybe someone already messed with it? If so, I have no problem filing the safety notch to protrude less and welding the seer's tip. Unfortunately, I have no experience with original locks so I can't tell.

I'm trying to figure out if there was a genuine reason why the safety notch would be cut that deep in the first place? Maybe it was in an (failed) attempt to prevent accidental discharge? The tip of the seer definitely used to be sharper for sure. Looking at it closely one can see what looks like slight damage.

I'm much closer to building up the seer's tip with a tig welder than filing the protrusion down. However, if I just do one and not the other there is nothing stopping it from breaking again unless I never give the gun to anyone else to shoot and I always remember to shoot it with a quick strong trigger pull as Larry Akers said.

I have to think about it. I'm leaning towards leaving it as is until I can see some pictures of other Belgian locks from the period. This way I could do more of a "restoration" than a modification. Unfortunately only other original cap lock guns I have are English and from Norway. If anyone has a Liège made cap lock gun I would be very grateful for closeup pictures of the lock.
 
Thank you that is a very thorough diagnosis :) I do have experience with and I have various hand tools including needle files. I also have a tig welder and I can weld small stuff with it.

It is a heavy gun. Definitely not just for shot. The barrel was made to shoot slugs/round balls as well. I performed the safety notch test you described. Unfortunately the cock fell when I haven't even rested half of the gun's weight on the trigger. So it is quite weak. Comparable to a normal force required for a "typical" trigger pull (if there is such a thing).

Now comes the hardest part. Deciding if I should mess with it, or just accept it as is.

The key in making this decision for me is whether this is in its original condition or maybe someone already messed with it? If so, I have no problem filing the safety notch to protrude less and welding the seer's tip. Unfortunately, I have no experience with original locks so I can't tell.

I'm trying to figure out if there was a genuine reason why the safety notch would be cut that deep in the first place? Maybe it was in an (failed) attempt to prevent accidental discharge? The tip of the seer definitely used to be sharper for sure. Looking at it closely one can see what looks like slight damage.

I'm much closer to building up the seer's tip with a tig welder than filing the protrusion down. However, if I just do one and not the other there is nothing stopping it from breaking again unless I never give the gun to anyone else to shoot and I always remember to shoot it with a quick strong trigger pull as Larry Akers said.

I have to think about it. I'm leaning towards leaving it as is until I can see some pictures of other Belgian locks from the period. This way I could do more of a "restoration" than a modification. Unfortunately only other original cap lock guns I have are English and from Norway. If anyone has a Liège made cap lock gun I would be very grateful for closeup pictures of the lock.

Hi Ironoxide

OK welding up the tip (alone) is almost SURE to COMPOUND the problems you have with the half cock now. The bottom rear corner of the half cock notch looks almost certain to have been worn or broken off and you can't fix that with a new sear tip. I'm almost positive you should cut into the tumbler more so you get positive half cock and then also cut the half cock notch down a bit - to fix the design flaw in the lock.

Repro parts for that lock, if you want them, will have to be made, as nothing I know of on the market will work in that gun.

Since you know how to TIG Weld and I therefore assume you know how to properly re-harden/anneal parts, why not fix it correctly so it will last for generations more and anyone can shoot it?

I can walk you through it, should you decide to fix it.

Gus
 
Hi Ironoxide

OK welding up the tip (alone) is almost SURE to COMPOUND the problems you have with the half cock now. The bottom rear corner of the half cock notch looks almost certain to have been worn or broken off and you can't fix that with a new sear tip. I'm almost positive you should cut into the tumbler more so you get positive half cock and then also cut the half cock notch down a bit - to fix the design flaw in the lock.

Repro parts for that lock, if you want them, will have to be made, as nothing I know of on the market will work in that gun.

Since you know how to TIG Weld and I therefore assume you know how to properly re-harden/anneal parts, why not fix it correctly so it will last for generations more and anyone can shoot it?

I can walk you through it, should you decide to fix it.

Gus

Thanks. I would like to fix it if possible. I will try to disassemble it gently in a day or two to find out if things are riveted/pressed together or if parts can be separated and reassembled easily. If the tumbler can be taken off/put back on easily perhaps I can make a new one (with your help with the geometry) and keep the old one with the gun just in case. I have a fairly well equipped hobby machine shop so making one should be doable. I made screws and custom screwdriver tips for that gun previously.
 
Thanks. I would like to fix it if possible. I will try to disassemble it gently in a day or two to find out if things are riveted/pressed together or if parts can be separated and reassembled easily. If the tumbler can be taken off/put back on easily perhaps I can make a new one (with your help with the geometry) and keep the old one with the gun just in case. I have a fairly well equipped hobby machine shop so making one should be doable. I made screws and custom screwdriver tips for that gun previously.

Well, of course you could make a whole new tumbler, but I wouldn't do it, as I don't think you need to do it.

Of course if the Sear Nose is messed up, fix that first.

Then once you get it repaired and the lock completely disassembled, put JUST the bare Tumbler back on the lock plate without the hammer. Screw the bridle over it and the sear (no Sear Spring). Put the sear in the full cock notch and gently move it down until it just comes free of the Full Cock Notch. HOLD it in that position and rotate the tumbler so the half cock comes close to the Sear Nose. That will show you how much you need to relieve or cut down the Half Cock Notch. I do it until the Half Cock won't touch the Sear Nose as it passes by the Sear. This almost permanently assures the Sear Nose will NEVER hit the Half Cock Notch again when the Hammer is released, no matter how lightly one pulls the trigger.

Gus
 
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