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Do I just have a “short-range” rifle?

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Joined
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Hello all.
I have a 1976 Pedersoli Plainsman caplock .45 that has been looked after by previous owner(s). The bore is shiny and the riflings all appear in good nik, even though they appear to be cut shallow. Recovered patches show no tears or ragged spots.

My frustration with it comes from not being able to hit anything beyond 50 metres. Up to 50 metres it groups very well (under 2 inches). However at 100 metres the target looks like it’s been hit with a shotgun. Absolutely no predicable point of impact and nothing you could call a group.

Yes. I have been through a lengthy, patient and systematic process of trying different patches, lubricants, ball sizes, powder charges and granulation. However I cannot find what this rifle needs beyond 50m. I wipe the bore between shots. I’ve come to wonder if this is simply a short range rifle and that’s all there is to it? Am I asking more than it’s designed for?

The results of my experiments to arrive at 50m accuracy are a .445 ball in a 15 thousands cotton patch using a 1:5 ratio of Ballistol and water and a teaspoon of dish soap. 45 grains of fffg Wano (Scheutzen). Off a stable rest, that will produce a 2 inch group wiping between shots.

Has anyone any advice or opinion?
 
Big difference between 50 and 100 meters. 100 is where variances really start to show up. Practice is what makes the difference. It took me 2 years to be able to get all my shots within the scoring rings at 100 yards (offhand shooting). If you are using open iron sights it can be challenging. You may also want to try a bigger charge at 100 yard distance, maybe around 60-65 grains.
 
I appreciate everyone’s help.

The twist is 1:48. A bit too fast for round ball but that’s what it is. The balls are within a couple grains.
The barrel is snug in the stock, but I’ll check the drum. I understand it’s best if there is a small gap between the lock and the drum.
Iron sights, traditional blade and notch longrifle style
Yes I should have mentioned that I increase the powder charge to 60g otherwise the balls wont reach the target at 100m.

What kind of accuracy is typical for a .45 round ball at 100? 5-6 inch group maybe?
 
If shooting off a stable bench rest, I'm not sure that 2" is a good group at 50 yards, especially if you have vision that allows a really clear sight picture. So it doesn't surprise me if they are spreading even further at 100 yards.

Pedersoli's do have rather shallow grooves, but I've owned three Pedersoli rifles and each one has been a tack driver at yardage to 100 and beyond.

I do not know if you have hand cast round ball or commercial product, but weighing and measuring them is one thing to check. I have had some really bad batches of commercial (Hornady) round ball that varied significantly in weight and worse...they weren't even round! Also, what kind of powder charge "range" have you tried? You mention you settled on 45 grs....how much higher have you gone? I assume the sights are tight/secure and not moving. Others have mentioned other things to check.

Net, if the bore is in good condition and everything on the rifle is nice and tight, then something else remains to be found and/or changed in the load chain. Sometimes it takes a while, but you'll find the answer.
 
...
The twist is 1:48. A bit too fast for round ball but that’s what it is. The balls are within a couple grains.
...

That the 1 in 48 twist is too fast for round ball is one of those myths that really needs to be discredited. Many rifles of the round ball ere had the 1 in 48 twist. The real driver is the depth of the grooves. Very shallow grooves are for the conical bullets and deeper grooves are for round ball. If your Pedersoli Plainsman has grooves deeper than 0.006" it should be quite capable of shooting round ball accurately. You will needed a tight ball and patch combination to properly engage the ball into the rifling, but twist rate should not be a problem.

Clarity of the sights, wind, varying light on the front sight, clarity of the target and the rest could be more reasons the groups open up at 100 yards.
 
Try a nice snug patch/ball combo. And shoot off a steady rest with the rest as far towards the muzzle as possible. Put a sandbag under the butt of the rifle, adjust by moving the buttstock back and forth dispersing the sand in the bag as you go. Make sure EVERYTHING is the same, take 5 shots at 50 yards... don’t adjust anything until after the 5th shot... that will get you pretty close to where your rifle/load combo is shooting. Then you can start making sight adjustments, load adjustments and so forth.
 
I would try different powder charges and different granulations (3f and 2f). At 100 yards, you will want to use between 60-70 grains. Patch material and thickness as compared to ball diameter. Try some .440 and .445. Typically a bit thicker patch works for me, but yours may be different. Check your fired patches (if you can find them) to make sure they haven't burned through or have been cut by sharp rifling's. Even different lubes could make a slight difference. I would shoot everything off from a a good rest just to minimize human error. I've never been able to get the accuracy from a minie or conical bullet that I could from a patched round ball even with my 1:48 twist TC.
 
My eyes were never that good, I wore glasses from age 12 until 72 when I had cataract surgery. Now I only need them to read.
Sounds like an old guy I knew from China. He went into the eye doctor and when he came out, they told him he had a cataract. He looked at them with a serious expression and said, "No, brother has Cataract, me drive Rincoln Continental."
 
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If the rifling is quite shallow, it could be that the rifle shoots patched balls great with 45 grains, but when you bump up the charge to reach out to 100m, the balls may be "stripping" the rifling (not engaging properly). Try shooting some 60 grain charges at 50m and see if your groups open up from what they are with the 45 grain charge.
 
Hello all.
I have a 1976 Pedersoli Plainsman caplock .45 that has been looked after by previous owner(s). The bore is shiny and the riflings all appear in good nik, even though they appear to be cut shallow. Recovered patches show no tears or ragged spots.

My frustration with it comes from not being able to hit anything beyond 50 metres. Up to 50 metres it groups very well (under 2 inches). However at 100 metres the target looks like it’s been hit with a shotgun. Absolutely no predicable point of impact and nothing you could call a group.

Yes. I have been through a lengthy, patient and systematic process of trying different patches, lubricants, ball sizes, powder charges and granulation. However I cannot find what this rifle needs beyond 50m. I wipe the bore between shots. I’ve come to wonder if this is simply a short range rifle and that’s all there is to it? Am I asking more than it’s designed for?

The results of my experiments to arrive at 50m accuracy are a .445 ball in a 15 thousands cotton patch using a 1:5 ratio of Ballistol and water and a teaspoon of dish soap. 45 grains of fffg Wano (Scheutzen). Off a stable rest, that will produce a 2 inch group wiping between shots.

Has anyone any advice or opinion?
This is what I think is happening with that barrel. It's acting like a smooth bore with the shallow rifling and not getting a grip on the patch causing the ball to skid down bore. This is probably why you have good accuracy to 50 and it goes south at 100 yards which I'm told is pretty common with smooth bore shooting. If the rifling pitch is tight 1-36 or 48 than a hard conical bullet will probably work well. If you have a slow twist 1-60 or so than try a tighter patch on the ball.
 
What is the thickest patch and ball combination you, @Widows Son, have tried? It will likely take a tight 0.445" ball with a 0.018" patch up to 0.020". As @M. De Land suggests, I too think that the ball and patch are not gripping the rifling. How wet is your lube on the patch. I have great success with a slightly damp patch with 1 part Ballistol and 7 parts water. Your rifle may like a dry patch. Dampen you patch material and let the patch material dry on a flat surface. Use a short starter with a concave tip to minimize damage to the surface of the ball. With a dry patch, wiping between shots is a necessity. Take care to prevent fouling build up in the flash channel. This may mean a blast of air or a pipe cleaner through the flash channel.
 
@Widows Son, you ant your patch to make this kind of imprint on your lead ball. Look at the image in the quote form Tim L.

This is what I do. Cut strip of your patching material 1 1/2” wide wet middle of cloth drive down bore 6” with short starter. And pull it out with strip hanging out of muzzle. And follow drawing below. I use pillow ticking from the fabric store and rip or cut a strip.
then compair to photo below copied from Lyman’s Black Powder Handbook 11th printing 1996. This what works for me.View attachment 63005
 
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