4f Powder In A Revolver

If the difference in pressure between 3 and 4f is the difference in firearm integrity I can not recomend shooting the firearm with any grade of black!

Please, anyone, submit your data of demonstrative testing that proves without fear being the basis that 4f is dangerous.

Not this BS again.

Lyman published data for 4f in revolvers in their manuals, OP if you want the data search this topic it has been beat to death by the people who are afraid of 4f (and their own shadows) and those of us who have used it without issue. Perhaps the fellow who posted the pictures of the pertinent Lyman manual pages will happen along and repost them, probably not for all the grief given by the 4faphobes.

Like Britsmoothey said, if you think the difference in whether your gun is going to blow up is as thin as the line between 3f and 4f, you'd best find another revolver or another hobby.

I've been shooting 38 grains of 4F in my stainless steel 1858 for years. I use .457 lead balls, a wonder-wad under it and crush in 38 grains to achieve over 1000 FPS and great accuracy and killing power. (took a doe at 72 yards).

I use this loading table chart.

M.D.Smith's Blackpowder page 2 (reloadammo.com)

In my 1858 revolver I loaded 20 grains FFFg and 20 grains FFFFg looking for a "target" load. The FFFg actually produced more velocity at that weight by volume. I went up in charge in 2 grain increments. The FFFFg quickly took over and at 28 grains it produces an average of 64 PFS greater velocity than the same charge of FFFg. It didn't cause any problems that are obvious. I might not really need the extra 64 FPS but I don't fret over using either powder.

Similarly, with all powder being more difficult to find lately, a neighbor pounded Pyrodex RS into a fine powder to use in his revolvers. He thought it was a good idea. Essentially, he made FFg into FFFFg by the looks of it. He didn't change the load and it works just fine in his revolvers. This is Pyrodex and not "black powder" but the concept is still the same - 4F granulation in his revolvers.

PathfinderNJ said:

Is that Cream of Wheat with or without syrup?

Click to expand...

SDSmlf said:

4F Cream of Wheat if you are the adventurous type, otherwise stick to 3F or 2F. Not sure it could be called PC/HC as the stuff wasn’t invented until 1893.

Click to expand...

Unboiled Cream of Wheat with out the syrup. The sugars in the syrup mix with the fouling to make a very crusty mess in the barrel.

Corn meal also works as a filler above the powder as does Grits or Cream of Rice.

TNGhost said:

Not this BS again.

Lyman published data for 4f in revolvers in their manuals, OP if you want the data search this topic it has been beat to death by the Nancies who are afraid of 4f (and their own shadows) and those of us who have used it without issue. Perhaps the fellow who posted the pictures of the pertinent Lyman manual pages will happen along and repost them, probably not for all the grief given by the 4faphobes.

Like Britsmoothey said, if you think the difference in whether your gun is going to blow up is as thin as the line between 3f and 4f, you'd best find another revolver or another hobby.

Click to expand...

Here you go, as previously posted, before this thread gets locked.

Below are photographs of pages 76 and 77 from the first edition (1975) Lyman Black Powder Handbook’ showing 44 caliber handgun loads. Note powder granulation underlined in red with round balls and Lyman hollow base conical.




Below is a photograph of my original 1858 that has used pounds of ffff powder. Still have powder in the horn, and yep, it was ffff. It is the granulation that came with the gun when my old man gave it to me.




If the Lyman data is to be believe (some will argue it isn’t), it would seem very safe to start around 40 grains of ffff in a rifle and work up from there for accuracy. I would not hesitate for a minute to shoot ffff in any muzzleloader in sound mechanical condition. Would just need to work up a load like any other granulation.

I would say to use the powder recommended for your pistol. I will not say not to use 4f, but I would believe that higher pressures will eventually cause problems. Powder has improved over the years and what was ok years ago is not necessarily the same today.
Be very careful not to double charge a cylinder, you can only go so far. OOPS is a word that you can't take back.
Consider the legal ramifications when you shoot. An injured shooter next to you can own your home should your pistol malfunction IN ANY WAY and it is determined that your powder is not recommended for the pistol.
There are people here that will tell you to use H110 in small amounts. Should you try it and discover the fallacy of smokeless powder in a black powder firearm. they will feel bad, and maybe not recommend H110 anymore. You will have more serious problems.

Crow-Feather said:

I would say to use the powder recommended for your pistol. I will not say not to use 4f, but I would believe that higher pressures will eventually cause problems. Powder has improved over the years and what was ok years ago is not necessarily the same today.
Be very careful not to double charge a cylinder, you can only go so far. OOPS is a word that you can't take back.
Consider the legal ramifications when you shoot. An injured shooter next to you can own your home should your pistol malfunction IN ANY WAY and it is determined that your powder is not recommended for the pistol.
There are people here that will tell you to use H110 in small amounts. Should you try it and discover the fallacy of smokeless powder in a black powder firearm. they will feel bad, and maybe not recommend H110 anymore. You will have more serious problems.

Click to expand...

2F vs 3F vs 4F vs H110? What does H110 have to do with OP question? Totally Different pressures and pressure curves. Not classified as blackpowder or a blackpowder substitute. Every time I see references to smokeless powders like H110 being used in blackpowder guns it involves a demonstration on how to destroy a gun.

I have replica guns with ‘Blackpowder Only’ stamped on the barrel. Doesn’t specify blackpowder granulation, but what about the use of Pyrodex? Guess that’s out? A lot of manufacturers recommend pure lead for bullets. What happens if I use Linotype or wheel weight scrap? Or #11 percussion caps when manufacturer says to use #10 caps? Or magnum caps? And something goes wrong?

First I want to state my interest is in accurate loads and I use 3f exclusively. Why? because I have it, it gives me the results I want and I only have to deal with one granulation in my pistols and revolvers. If I were to find 2f or 1f gave better results I would switch and that goes for 4f too. Now I'm not looking for max loads or even anything near and I don't recall ever having shot more than 25 grains in a .44 or 22 grains in a .36 and that was 3f. Am I afraid of using 4f? Not at all! If it gave me better results that what I'm using now I'd be on top of it in a heartbeat but no, I've never tried or felt the need. I can't believe it's a safety issue, the highest pressure measured by Lyman was 8480 LUP (lead units of pressure) and any modern C&B revolver will handle that easily. For comparison Lyman recorded a pressure of 8820 LUP using 3f. While 4f does burn a little faster and so will reach it's pressure peak a little sooner it does not deal a massive hammer blow to the gun, smokeless powder does that. Will I be loading my Walker with 60 grains of 4f? Probably not.

Some claim there are errors in Lyman's data. If anyone can refute their data using equal or better equipment I'm more than willing to listen and accept but so far I haven't seen that happen. I know it's somewhat of an aside but if anyone is interested in internal ballistics, i.e. pressure curves inside a barrel they should look at the research Winchester did in the late 50s and early 60s in trying to duplicate black powder shotgun loads with smokeless powder. The pressures measured along the barrels (and compared) are very interesting and will give one a good understanding of what actually happens inside the barrel and when.

"If the difference in pressure between 3 and 4f is the difference in firearm integrity I can not recommend shooting the firearm with any grade of black!" (Britsmoothy)

Crow-Feather said:

I would say to use the powder recommended for your pistol. I will not say not to use 4f, but I would believe that higher pressures will eventually cause problems. Powder has improved over the years and what was ok years ago is not necessarily the same today.
Be very careful not to double charge a cylinder, you can only go so far. OOPS is a word that you can't take back.
Consider the legal ramifications when you shoot. An injured shooter next to you can own your home should your pistol malfunction IN ANY WAY and it is determined that your powder is not recommended for the pistol.
There are people here that will tell you to use H110 in small amounts. Should you try it and discover the fallacy of smokeless powder in a black powder firearm. they will feel bad, and maybe not recommend H110 anymore. You will have more serious problems.

Click to expand...

Actually a fellow researched, tested through a revolver, and dissected some .44 cal Hazards paper cartridges from the Civil War using what was known as Pistol Powder was 4F granulation and as powerful as Swiss powder. Just like today they were able to make high quality/potent powders.

There’s also a museum curator who disassembled a lot of metallic cartridges from the late 19th century that contained 4F and even finer powders. Can’t say much about the potency of these powders, but the calibers ranged on up into the large range as well.

What I dont get is most Americans as we use to would think nothing of loading just a few grains of 90%nitro glycerin like say alliant bullseye into a 38 special case. A practice that if you make a mistake and double does a case is known for lifting the top straps off revolvers.
But mention using 4f and oh bloody hell! The world ending has come early!!

For goodness sake

Britsmoothy said:

What I dont get is most Americans as we use to would think nothing of loading just a few grains of 90%nitro glycerin like say alliant bullseye into a 38 special case. A practice that if you make a mistake and double does a case is known for lifting the top straps off revolvers.
But mention using 4f and oh bloody hell! The world ending has come early!!

For goodness sake

Click to expand...

Sorry Brit, we ain't what we used to be and are letting the world and everyone in it down.

TNGhost said:

Sorry Brit, we ain't what we used to be and are letting the world and everyone in it down.

Click to expand...

Same as Britain then!

SDSmlf said:

2F vs 3F vs 4F vs H110? What does H110 have to do with OP question? Totally Different pressures and pressure curves. Not classified as blackpowder or a blackpowder substitute. Every time I see references to smokeless powders like H110 being used in blackpowder guns it involves a demonstration on how to destroy a gun.

Click to expand...

I can't believe H110 was even mentioned insofar as BP revolvers. It was my favorite powder for .44 Mag in a SBH, but I am treading on thin ice here on this forum. Done.

Regards,

Jim

This thread has gone very astray. I suggest it be closed.

rodwha said:

Actually a fellow researched, tested through a revolver, and dissected some .44 cal Hazards paper cartridges from the Civil War using what was known as Pistol Powder was 4F granulation and as powerful as Swiss powder. Just like today they were able to make high quality/potent powders.

There’s also a museum curator who disassembled a lot of metallic cartridges from the late 19th century that contained 4F and even finer powders. Can’t say much about the potency of these powders, but the calibers ranged on up into the large range as well.

Click to expand...

Once again, use what is recommended by the manufacturer. If not, ANYTHING goes wrong and someone gets hurt, you need a lawyer. When you give such info and advise, be sure to tell them you will split the lawyer's fee and any fines or settlements.
The day is near when people are going to be able to sue gun manufacturers. (HR 5717) That might include people who advise new shooters to load their weapon with non-recommended powders. I will say no more except that you are betting your house that the person you are advising doesn't triple load 4f and tell the police investigating that you said it was ok to do so.