Pawn Shop H. Leman Rifle ID

Soxlocke · Nov 18, 2020

Hello All,

I just joined this group because it seems like a very knowledgable community and I'm looking for some info on a gun I just picked up for a STEAL at a local pawn-shop. The owner had no idea what it was because the pitting on the lock plate made the manufacturer’s name very hard to read.

See link for images:

It has a broken half-stock and is missing the powder drum, ramrod, and sights. Other than that, everything seems to be here. I discovered the broken stock when I disassembled it hunting for markings so I could learn more. (It was there before I did anything I swear! Haha) The ONLY markings I could find or at least discern on the rifle were the letters “LEMAN LANCASTER, PA” on the lock. Using my extensive google knowledge I was able to determine that it is likely a Leman Trade Rifle. I haven’t determined its caliber yet. Seems like it might be .50 cal. The barrel is VERY heavy and measures 29.5" long.

I understand there are some reproduction parts out there, so I’m considering getting replacements. I’d love to restore this gun, but I also don’t want to ruin it’s value. Before I take it apart much further, I wanted to get some expert insight and I appreciate any you’d be willing to offer me.

I only paid $80 for it, so I figure
A) I can restore it and use it for muzzle loading season and/or reenactments or
B) this sucker is worth more than I realize and I’ll keep it just like it is and re-sell it.

Soxlocke · Nov 18, 2020

Also, some things about this gun make me think it might have been a flintlock-percussion conversion which is why I posted in this thread.

kje54 · Nov 18, 2020

Soxlocke said:
Also, some things about this gun make me think it might have been a flintlock-percussion conversion which is why I posted in this thread.

I think the vast majority of H. E. Leman's guns were percussion so the odds are it started out as a percussion. Depending on the condition it's in will determine it's value, given the condition you're describing it's probably not worth much so rebuilding it most likely will not destroy it's value. In this case it might even add to it but not as a collectors item. What's the bore look like?

springfield art · Nov 18, 2020

Soxlocke said:
Hello All,

I just joined this group because it seems like a very knowledgable community and I'm looking for some info on a gun I just picked up for a STEAL at a local pawn-shop. The owner had no idea what it was because the pitting on the lock plate made the manufacturer’s name very hard to read.

See link for images:

It has a broken half-stock and is missing the powder drum, ramrod, and sights. Other than that, everything seems to be here. I discovered the broken stock when I disassembled it hunting for markings so I could learn more. (It was there before I did anything I swear! Haha) The ONLY markings I could find or at least discern on the rifle were the letters “LEMAN LANCASTER, PA” on the lock. Using my extensive google knowledge I was able to determine that it is likely a Leman Trade Rifle. I haven’t determined its caliber yet. Seems like it might be .50 cal. The barrel is VERY heavy and measures 29.5" long.

I understand there are some reproduction parts out there, so I’m considering getting replacements. I’d love to restore this gun, but I also don’t want to ruin it’s value. Before I take it apart much further, I wanted to get some expert insight and I appreciate any you’d be willing to offer me.

I only paid $80 for it, so I figure
A) I can restore it and use it for muzzle loading season and/or reenactments or
B) this sucker is worth more than I realize and I’ll keep it just like it is and re-sell it.

Certainly worth restoring if done correctly. Sounds just like the kind of project you'd see written up in Muzzleblasts magazine! Good luck! Nice find!

plmeek · Nov 18, 2020

I can tell only so much from pictures, so I offer a few opinions.

I see no evidence that the lock was ever a flintlock. The square or clipped tail on the lock plate is a characteristic of a late Henry Leman lock of the percussion period. There is an extra hole in the lock plate near the nose. This appears to be the stud hole for the original main spring that was on the lock. I believe the lock has a modern replacement mainspring which required drilling a new hole in a slightly different location.

There are two lock bolt holes in the lock plate bolster suggesting this lock has been on another gun or older stock.

Henry Leman normally marked the rifles his company made on the lock and on the barrel. Since you didn't find any marks on barrel, I suspect that someone other than Leman made this gun or another possibility is that this is a relatively modern parts gun assembled from antique and possibly modern parts.

The "unknown holes drilled into the top of the barrel" suggest that a peep sight or even a scope had been mounted on it. This was sometimes done in the middle of the 20th century when interest in muzzleloaders and black powder shooting was beginning a revival, but before reproduction guns were widely available. People often shot antique guns or fabricated shoot-able guns from antique parts.

The original rear sight dovetails appear to have been filled. One with iron or steel and another with a copper colored metal.

It's hard to tell, but it is possible that the stock is modern. I notice the color of the wood in the lock mortise is about the same as the fresh wood exposed in the broken wrist. I would be interested in seeing pictures of the wood under the butt plate and in the barrel channel.

You didn't mention if the barrel is rifled or smoothbore. The octagon to round barrel isn't common on rifles of this period. Does it look like an antique or modern barrel?

I would also like to see pictures of the bottom of the barrel showing the front half of the bottom flat. Looks like there might be some other extraneous holes there that might tell us more about its history.

The patch box only has two screws holding it on and these are in the finial. The two side plates appear to have nails holding them on. This style of patch box was used by a number of different gun makers, including Henry Leman, but most used screws to hold the side plate on as shown in the montage below.

It's hard to tell from the pictures alone whether this is an antique patch box or a modern reproduction.

Anyway, just some observations.

Soxlocke · Nov 18, 2020

plmeek said:
It's hard to tell, but it is possible that the stock is modern. I notice the color of the wood in the lock mortise is about the same as the fresh wood exposed in the broken wrist. I would be interested in seeing pictures of the wood under the butt plate and in the barrel channel.

You didn't mention if the barrel is rifled or smoothbore. The octagon to round barrel isn't common on rifles of this period. Does it look like an antique or modern barrel?

I would also like to see pictures of the bottom of the barrel showing the front half of the bottom flat. Looks like there might be some other extraneous holes there that might tell us more about its history.

The patch box only has two screws holding it on and these are in the finial. The two side plates appear to have nails holding them on. This style of patch box was used by a number of different gun makers, including Henry Leman, but most used screws to hold the side plate on as shown in the montage below.

Those are some excellent observations! Thank you so much for your thorough insight. I'll do my best to answer your questions and post follow up pictures below.

I suspected the peep-sights and the modern stock. Attached are some pics which either indicate 1 this rifle never saw action or 2 its a modern stock. (which I feared)

The bore appears rifled to me. See attached pic. It also seems like an antique. In places it is just as pitted as the lockplate. It's hard to tell, but there might have been letters on the top. If they were there, they have been rubbed off similar to what almost happened on the lockplate.

Could you describe what part is the bottom flat? Is that under where the firing chamber is?

Soxlocke · Nov 18, 2020

I'm also wondering about the size of my rifle. It seems aweful small. I haven't really found any other that matches it exactly yet.

plmeek · Nov 19, 2020

Soxlocke said:
Could you describe what part is the bottom flat? Is that under where the firing chamber is?

I was interested in seeing some clear close-ups of this portion of the barrel. I was curious if I could make any sense of the holes and marks that appear on the bottom of the barrel and near the bottom edge of the barrel in this picture.

The barrel is the biggest mystery to me. You don't normally see this abrupt transition from octagon to round on barrels of this period.

The unexposed wood of the stock looks modern. The soldering job on the PB lid hinge looks modern, also.

The stock, patch box, the barrel wedge escutcheon, and possibly the triggers look modern to me.

The lock is definitely antique, the trigger guard might be, the barrel is likely antique but not what I would expect on this type of rifle. The barrel may have been full octagon originally and the round portion may have been turned down decades ago. I'd have to see it in person to determine.

I can't tell much about the butt plate, but it appears to have the same patina as the patch box, so could be modern also.

There's a good chance that someone put this together in the 1950's or 60's as a target rifle. It appears to have been used or at least abused with the broken stock and it's missing a lower ramrod pipe on the rib. It would have had a drum and nipple. Not sure what happened to it. Someone may have simply taken it out so it wouldn't be fired again.

I'm not sure what one would do with it now. I wouldn't recommend spending any serious money on it to have it restored. It won't reduce its value, but it wouldn't likely increase its value much either.

But it's not a total loss. The lock alone is worth what you paid for it.

kje54 · Nov 19, 2020

plmeek said:
I was interested in seeing some clear close-ups of this portion of the barrel. I was curious if I could make any sense of the holes and marks that appear on the bottom of the barrel and near the bottom edge of the barrel in this picture.
View attachment 50915

The barrel is the biggest mystery to me. You don't normally see this abrupt transition from octagon to round on barrels of this period.

The unexposed wood of the stock looks modern. The soldering job on the PB lid hinge looks modern, also.

The stock, patch box, the barrel wedge escutcheon, and possibly the triggers look modern to me.

The lock is definitely antique, the trigger guard might be, the barrel is likely antique but not what I would expect on this type of rifle. The barrel may have been full octagon originally and the round portion may have been turned down decades ago. I'd have to see it in person to determine.

I can't tell much about the butt plate, but it appears to have the same patina as the patch box, so could be modern also.

There's a good chance that someone put this together in the 1950's or 60's as a target rifle. It appears to have been used or at least abused with the broken stock and it's missing a lower ramrod pipe on the rib. It would have had a drum and nipple. Not sure what happened to it. Someone may have simply taken it out so it wouldn't be fired again.

I'm not sure what one would do with it now. I wouldn't recommend spending any serious money on it to have it restored. It won't reduce its value, but it wouldn't likely increase its value much either.

But it's not a total loss. The lock alone is worth what you paid for it.

It's beginning to look like a "parts" gun that someone threw together. The holes in the bottom flat were probably the original pin holes for the barrel and the tangs added later with the new stock.

toot · Nov 19, 2020

kje54 said:
I think the vast majority of H. E. Leman's guns were percussion so the odds are it started out as a percussion. Depending on the condition it's in will determine it's value, given the condition you're describing it's probably not worth much so rebuilding it most likely will not destroy it's value. In this case it might even add to it but not as a collectors item. What's the bore look like?

LEHMAN did indeed only make percussion weapons. at least that seems to be what books on him seem to indicate. I have an original one in 40 CAL, that I shoot occasionally, with light loads, 35 to 40 GRS. of 3FG. BP. and a .390. DIA. PATCHED RB.

toot · Nov 19, 2020

plmeek said:
I was interested in seeing some clear close-ups of this portion of the barrel. I was curious if I could make any sense of the holes and marks that appear on the bottom of the barrel and near the bottom edge of the barrel in this picture.
View attachment 50915

The barrel is the biggest mystery to me. You don't normally see this abrupt transition from octagon to round on barrels of this period.

The unexposed wood of the stock looks modern. The soldering job on the PB lid hinge looks modern, also.

The stock, patch box, the barrel wedge escutcheon, and possibly the triggers look modern to me.

The lock is definitely antique, the trigger guard might be, the barrel is likely antique but not what I would expect on this type of rifle. The barrel may have been full octagon originally and the round portion may have been turned down decades ago. I'd have to see it in person to determine.

I can't tell much about the butt plate, but it appears to have the same patina as the patch box, so could be modern also.

There's a good chance that someone put this together in the 1950's or 60's as a target rifle. It appears to have been used or at least abused with the broken stock and it's missing a lower ramrod pipe on the rib. It would have had a drum and nipple. Not sure what happened to it. Someone may have simply taken it out so it wouldn't be fired again.

I'm not sure what one would do with it now. I wouldn't recommend spending any serious money on it to have it restored. It won't reduce its value, but it wouldn't likely increase its value much either.

But it's not a total loss. The lock alone is worth what you paid for it.

later addons?

muzzlecap · Nov 19, 2020

kje54 said:
It's beginning to look like a "parts" gun that someone threw together. The holes in the bottom flat were probably the original pin holes for the barrel and the tangs added later with the new stock.

Agree. The holes in the bottom flat were for pins that originally held the barrel in.

Rifleman1776 · Nov 19, 2020

Soxlocke said:
Also, some things about this gun make me think it might have been a flintlock-percussion conversion which is why I posted in this thread.

I believe it always was percussion. But, great find. Hope it is restorable.

Soxlocke · Nov 19, 2020

plmeek said:
I was interested in seeing some clear close-ups of this portion of the barrel. I was curious if I could make any sense of the holes and marks that appear on the bottom of the barrel and near the bottom edge of the barrel in this picture.
...
The lock alone is worth what you paid for it.

Quick update. I took it back apart and have some more pictures for everyone to gander at based on what people were saying about the different parts.
https://imgur.com/a/2FDoTPA

I think you are right. Someone moved the clip forward from an old position. This is curious... If the stock is new, why not just fit the stock to the barrel instead of vice versa? Maybe this barrel has seen more than a couple stocks in it's time? Another thing I noticed about the barrel is that it has considerable wear where the sights once were. This is why I suspect no manufacturer markings still show. The barrel measures 29.5"

Currently, the trigger mechanism and the lock are not operational. I will need to do further surgery, but I want to be as careful as possible. I'm having a hard time finding a gunsmith near me that will answer my messages, so I might just do it myself. I've done field-cleaning on an 1853 Enfield before, but I've never repaired a trigger or lock. Any tips on how to proceed would be very helpful.

The front trigger moves just fine, but the back one seems stuck? One appears that it should fit under the other, but currently does not (see pics)

The current female hole on the barrel for powder drum measures 3/8" so I'm planning to buy a 1/2" to male 3/8" from TOTW.
I understand that Leman Locks fit 9/16th wide drums, but I didn't see that they had that size to fit a 3/16th hole. I'll tap the nipple hole to fit my gun once I get it. Any recommendations on the best nipple to use?

Thanks for all the great comments! You guys are being very helpful and after I finish this gun, I plan to post pics of the final product. I've already fashioned a ramrod from a dowl and an old .357 brass casing. (a little janky, but it looks good for now) haha

If you have any more picture requests for descerning more about the rifle, I'm happy to oblige.

Thanks all,
S.

Zonie · Nov 20, 2020

Can you do some "copy" and "paste" of your photos in your posts?
For reasons I don't understand, my computer refuses to show any of the "imgur" link pictures you posted.

Soxlocke · Nov 20, 2020

Zonie said:
Can you do some "copy" and "paste" of your photos in your posts?
For reasons I don't understand, my computer refuses to show any of the "imgur" link pictures you posted.

sportster73hp · Nov 20, 2020

The barrel tang appears to have been drilled more than once, hole is oval. My guess is parts recycling

44-henry · Nov 21, 2020

toot said:
LEHMAN did indeed only make percussion weapons. at least that seems to be what books on him seem to indicate. I have an original one in 40 CAL, that I shoot occasionally, with light loads, 35 to 40 GRS. of 3FG. BP. and a .390. DIA. PATCHED RB.

Not true, if you do any research you will find plenty of historical accounts that show Leman made both flint and percussion guns. A few have even survived in near mint condition and are well documented. Leman also sold locks and there are many non-Leman made rifles carrying Leman locks.

toot · Nov 22, 2020

well that is the historical info. that I dug up. and I beleave he came along after the flint area? if so why go back to flint? kind of like going and buying a MOD. T in 2000. JMHO.

44-henry · Nov 22, 2020

Having an opinion is fine, but in this case your opinion does not fit historical accounts and surviving artifacts. Leman was building muzzleloading firearms well into the cartridge gun era as well and period orders/inventories specify both flint and percussion Leman guns. As to the question why, could simply be that some in that era trusted flint more than percussion. There was also the issues of supply. A person could almost always find some flint if they needed to, but run out or loose your percussion caps in the wilderness and you were in some serious trouble.

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