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What a better twist rate for a 54 caliber

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I was always told, "The bigger the ball slower the twist" like a "toy top" the smaller the top is, the faster it has to spin, the larger the top is the slower it has to spin to stabilize itself.
 
Amazing that the Hawkens family figured this compromise twist out in their day with no internet. But it also seems that I have read that most Hawken customers were shooting roundballs. Guess they weren’t informed 1-48 was a compromise twist.... also hard to explain the one twist per barrel length used earlier in in time. With roundballs of all things. Just trying to understand.
It was likely a trial and error thing. They made a lot of barrels and over time discovered what was good and what was not so good.
 
The only .54 rifle I ever had was a fairly heavy (about 12 lbs) and had a 1:72" twist. With a prb it would not begin to group until charges were north of 100 gr.

I have one .54 with a green mountain square groove with that twist and same experience for me. While my 1-56 and 1-66 tend to like about 90 grs 2F with a round ball, that much slower twist barrel would not group well until 105 grains!
 
Have a Stith Hawken that Don personally built back in 2003. Has a deHaas 36” tapered barrel. 1” at the breech down to 7/8 at the muzzle. Is a .54 with a 1:60 twist.

The Hawken likes a .530 ball, 70 gr. Goex 3f, .018 spit patch. Extremely accurate with that load combo out to 100 yds.with no problem!

Respectfully, Cowboy
 
Keeping in mind that each rifle is individual and likes its own load.

I have my share of muzzleloader’s both production and custom built. My favorites are in .54 caliber.

All my .54’s group well with Goex 3f in the 70 to 80gr. range. Twist rates very up to 1:72. I’m of course talking round ball.

Respectfully, Cowboy
 
the 1-48 twist is not always a compromise twist although some people talk about it as it is. It real depends on the bore diameter. Smaller RBs need a tighter twist and of coarse bigger need less. The .32 for example. Most 32s come with a 1-48 twist and they usually don't shoot conicals that well.
 
the very best is 1/62. a 1/66 will work very well but if your getting a custom barrel made and have a choise do a 1/62 twist for a 54 round ball.
 
I’m only talking from personal experience. Mainly what I do !

Always have a starting point for a load work up for a specific caliber i/e .45 to .62. Also am talking about a work up for RB only.

The twist rate and groove depths are irrelevant to me during my initial work up for that rifle. My twist rates start from 1:48 to slower.

What I do that produces desired results.

STARTING POINT:

.45 , .440 ball-.015 patch-50 gr. Goex 3f

.50 .490 ball-.015 to.018 patch-60 gr. Goex 3f.

.54 .530 ball-.018 patch-70 gr. Goex 3f.

.58 .570 ball-.018 patch-90 gr. Goex 3f.

Those are my starting points for each caliber. I adjust powder charge and patch thickness accordingly until desired results are achieved. I usually have pretty descent accuracy right off the bat using these starting points. Maybe adding 5 gr every now and then?

My .62 is SB . Likes .600 ball-.010 patch- 90 gr. Goex 3f.

Anyway, getting a little off topic. I concentrate more on a starting point for a load work up more than the twist rate. With the right load combo, your rifle will be more than capable of out shooting you as they all like to say!

Just how I do things my friends.

Respectfully, Cowboy
 
Interesting conundrum. Shooting roundballs I do not remember finding a load that was ‘comfortable to shoot’ that required backing down on the load because of inaccuracy in a faster twist barrel, say 1-48, 1-56 or even 1-60. I do remember having to increase the load past the ‘comfortable to shoot’ level to get accuracy with some slower twist barrels, say 1-66 or 1-72. I know this isn’t a hard and fast rule, but in my opinion, at least for me, a pattern has developed that is difficult to deny.
 
What I really think for round ball?
That these are good.
36" twist for .36 bore.
45" twist for .45 bore.
50" twist for .50 bore.
58" twist for .58 bore.
62" twist for .62 bore.

For longer hunting style bullets make the twist a little bit quicker, but not much. Much quicker and you're talking really long bullets. For instance 48" in a .54 is generally good for long hunting bullets.

Any how, that's my opinion and if there's anything I'm sure of it's that everybody oughta have one.
 
I was always told, "The bigger the ball slower the twist" like a "toy top" the smaller the top is, the faster it has to spin, the larger the top is the slower it has to spin to stabilize itself.

This is true for bullet guns also. I'm not a CW rifle shooter but I was told that some of the 58 caliber muskets for shooting hollow based minies were 1:72 twist.

Regarding rifling depth and configuration, at a shoot quite a few years ago I observed a shooter shooting a musket match target. His rifle was obviously old. When I struck up a conversation with him he said yes, it was an "original" from the CW era. It was 58 caliber and had rather deep rifling with probably ten grooves with the lands and grooves of near equal width the grooves just slightly wider than the lands.

He was shooting some very good targets. I don't recall the model of the rifle though.
 
What I really think for round ball?
That these are good.
36" twist for .36 bore.
45" twist for .45 bore.
50" twist for .50 bore.
58" twist for .58 bore.
62" twist for .62 bore.

For longer hunting style bullets make the twist a little bit quicker, but not much. Much quicker and you're talking really long bullets. For instance 48" in a .54 is generally good for long hunting bullets.

Any how, that's my opinion and if there's anything I'm sure of it's that everybody oughta have one.

Those rates may not be ideal, but I think very workable.
 
There's only one .54 in my safe, and it has a 1-66" twist. Shoots very accurately with 60 grains of 3F but I've killed deer with 110 grains of Goex.
 
I use a T/C Renegade with 1in48 twist. Shoots patched round ball, .530 with a .018 cloth patch wonderfully. I was able to pick up one box of .54 Hornady Plains bullets, and with 90 gr FFG swiss it shoots even better. Seeing as Hornady discontinued the .54 Plains bullet, I may need to find a good mold. T/C does not have a very deep cut rifling, but seems to shoot great.
20200103_180753.jpg
 
I use a T/C Renegade with 1in48 twist. Shoots patched round ball, .530 with a .018 cloth patch wonderfully. I was able to pick up one box of .54 Hornady Plains bullets, and with 90 gr FFG swiss it shoots even better. Seeing as Hornady discontinued the .54 Plains bullet, I may need to find a good mold. T/C does not have a very deep cut rifling, but seems to shoot great.View attachment 45561

Can’t argue with success!

BTW: Nice looking Bore! 😂

Respectfully, Cowboy
 
The Hawken brothers weren't the first to use 1:48 twist. That was a common twist going back to the late 1700's. It wasn't until Thompson Center started making their so called Hawken rifle with that twist and shallow grooves that it started getting a bad rap. And I'm not sure how much of that was really justified. A lot of shooters somehow managed to win a lot of contests with their TC rifles and patched round balls.

Herb Troester performed an interesting experiment with his copy of the Bridger Hawken he made himself with a barrel that has a 1:48 twist. He seemed to be focused on measuring muzzle velocity and spread and point of impact rather than accuracy, but looking at his targets, he got about the same size groups for charges from 84 grains up to 210 grains. I think his experiment demonstrates the versatility of the 1:48 twist assuming it has sufficient groove depth. His post can be seen by following the link below.

The Horace Kephart Hawken

I don't think there is an answer to the OP's question. The patched round ball is pretty forgiving and often gives good accuracy in a number of different combinations.

The slower twists such as 1:72 and 1:75 came about in the 1970's when a lot of people were trying to turn their muzzleloaders into magnums with real heavy hunting loads.

For example, below is a list of the recommended loads that GRRW included with all their rifles in the 70's. Their light load is my hunting load. Their moderate load is more like my max load, and I have never loaded up to their maximum load. But this was representative of the mindset of hunters out here in the West in the 70's.

 
The Hawken brothers weren't the first to use 1:48 twist. That was a common twist going back to the late 1700's. It wasn't until Thompson Center started making their so called Hawken rifle with that twist and shallow grooves that it started getting a bad rap. And I'm not sure how much of that was really justified. A lot of shooters somehow managed to win a lot of contests with their TC rifles and patched round balls.

Herb Troester performed an interesting experiment with his copy of the Bridger Hawken he made himself with a barrel that has a 1:48 twist. He seemed to be focused on measuring muzzle velocity and spread and point of impact rather than accuracy, but looking at his targets, he got about the same size groups for charges from 84 grains up to 210 grains. I think his experiment demonstrates the versatility of the 1:48 twist assuming it has sufficient groove depth. His post can be seen by following the link below.

The Horace Kephart Hawken

I don't think there is an answer to the OP's question. The patched round ball is pretty forgiving and often gives good accuracy in a number of different combinations.

The slower twists such as 1:72 and 1:75 came about in the 1970's when a lot of people were trying to turn their muzzleloaders into magnums with real heavy hunting loads.

For example, below is a list of the recommended loads that GRRW included with all their rifles in the 70's. Their light load is my hunting load. Their moderate load is more like my max load, and I have never loaded up to their maximum load. But this was representative of the mindset of hunters out here in the West in the 70's.


Always seas to amaze me Phil.

You’re the real deal.

Without the risk of embarrassment, you reached out to me in many private conversations regarding the Hawken rifle. Always seen myself as a sponge soaking up every tidbit that Phil had to offer. Definitely a treasure trove of information based on extensive research.

My first love when it comes to muzzleloading and is still front and center is the Hawken rifle.

Phil has been gracious enough to spend private time with me to understand the smallest tell tale details to look for in architecture and design of that rifle.

There’s just something about that Hawken rifle that will always put it front and center in my muzzleloading journey and experience.

Phil’s invaluable knowledge and research, coupled with everything that I had already researched on my own right has definitely made me a better informed student of the Hawken rifle.

Lastly, Phil’s advice that he always stresses. “ Never say never when it comes to the Hawken rifle ! “

When you think you have a pretty good grasp on its history or architecture, another example may surface?

Told ya I was gonna embarrass ya ! But only in a grateful way with much admiration.

There is those who take and those who give.

Thank you for giving Phil. Many have benefited from your knowledge and research my friend.

Respectfully, Cowboy
 
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