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highwall_v2P

32 Cal
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
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I have 2 old pistols that I would like some info on

Flintlock pistol
.675 smooth bore
Belgium stamped into wood on L side
Small stamp on lockplate behind hammer ..... An anchor with ? and C

Pepperbox pistol
5 bbl .295 smooth bore
no markings visible other than some engraving

Flintlock mark.jpgIMG_4336.JPGIMG_4337.JPG
 
The flintlock was offered by Sears, Roebuck & Co. on page 319 in their 1902 catalog as, "Our 16th Century Flint Lock Pistol for Only $2.75." The description includes ..."our European buyer succeeded in finding a small lot of them in Europe, and has sent them to us." Bore is stated as 14 gauge, nine inches long. The buyer is instructed to "Show the boys the kind of pistol which our grandfathers used to shoot, before gun caps were invented."
The sixteenth century age seems optimistic...😐
 
IMO, if for no other reason, the fact that this is one of the guns offered by Sears & Roebuck gives some value to it.
I don't know what it would be worth today but I'm betting it is a lot more than $2.75. o_O
 
Now I need some pepperbox guru to tell me what that is.
cheers,
Mark Twain had a few things to say about the pepperbox in Roughing It, part 1:

"I was armed to the teeth with a pitiful little Smith & Wesson's seven-shooter, which carried a ball like a homoeopathic pill, and it took the whole seven to make a dose for an adult. But I thought it was grand. It appeared to me to be a dangerous weapon. It only had one fault--you could not hit anything with it. One of our "conductors" practiced awhile on a cow with it, and as long as she stood still and behaved herself she was safe; but as soon as she went to moving about, and he got to shooting at other things, she came to grief. The Secretary had a small-sized Colt's revolver strapped around him for protection against the Indians, and to guard against accidents he carried it uncapped. Mr. George Bemis was dismally formidable. George Bemis was our fellow-traveler.

"We had never seen him before. He wore in his belt an old original "Allen" revolver, such as irreverent people called a "pepper-box." Simply drawing the trigger back, cocked and fired the pistol. As the trigger came back, the hammer would begin to rise and the barrel to turn over, and presently down would drop the hammer, and away would speed the ball. To aim along the turning barrel and hit the thing aimed at was a feat which was probably never done with an "Allen" in the world. But George's was a reliable weapon, nevertheless, because, as one of the stage-drivers afterward said, "If she didn't get what she went after, she would fetch something else." And so she did. She went after a deuce of spades nailed against a tree, once, and fetched a mule standing about thirty yards to the left of it. Bemis did not want the mule; but the owner came out with a double-barreled shotgun and persuaded him to buy it, anyhow. It was a cheerful weapon--the "Allen." Sometimes all its six barrels would go off at once, and then there was no safe place in all the region round about, but behind it."

Spence
 
Thanks Spence,
I have never attempted to shoot this little bugger but I found one just like it on gunsinternational. It was a Manhattan mfg 1856-7. Unfortunately mine is unmarked except for a serial num under the grips. I love the Twain story.
cheers,
HW
 
Hi Highwall

Spence is correct in his description. These Belgium made horse pistols were made by the thousands and shipped all over Europe. They were made very robust, and many are still in shooting condition today. They were made primarily for cavalry use, thus the lanyard ring on the butt cap. The one unique feature is that they were intentionally made without a provision for a ramrod. The soldier would carry a seperate ramrod suspended around the neck with a throng. This made it faster to reload the pistol and prevented loss of the ramrod while loading from horseback.

Rick
DSC00205 (Medium).JPG
 
Hi Highwall

Spence is correct in his description.... The one unique feature is that they were intentionally made without a provision for a ramrod. The soldier would carry a seperate ramrod suspended around the neck with a throng. This made it faster to reload the pistol and prevented loss of the ramrod while loading from horseback.

Rick
I can see it now. A group of men standing around a body laying on the ground with one of them saying, "Well, he'd be fine if he didn't fall on that ramrod and run it thru his middle when he fell off his horse." o_O
 
My Belgian dragoon is .69 caliber. I have a .69" mold for a small cannon, but the gun won't quite take them, so I've shot it with some .600" balls and double or triple patches. It's a handful, weighs 2.5 pounds, has no sights, and is a hoot to shoot. Bad medicine up close and personal.

Back in the mid-1990s I corresponded with an avid gun enthusiast and collector in Quebec, and he was knowledgeable about this pistol. He helped me learn a bit about the gun, and said, "Value for vg+ condition of the last one I've seen on sale here in Canada was $450 Canadian. Nice piece of ordinance.”

Spence
 
I have that pistol. It is Belgian, made for either Belgian or Russian military, called Belgian Dragoon pistol ca.1830-40.
View attachment 42791
View attachment 42792

Spence
I too also have one of them. they were indeed a BELGIUN HORSE PISTOL. they were carried in a pair of holsters on the front of the saddle. and the reason that there is no place for a ram rod under the barell, is because the CALVERYMAN, carried one on his side in a leather devise. I still shoot mine at the range.
 
LOL !!!! Good one Zonie. The so called "captured" ramrod was another method during the same period to assist in loading and preclude the loss of the ramrod.

Rick
002 (Medium).JPG
014 (Medium).JPG
 
try and buy a BELGIUM HORSR PISTOL for $450.00, today! good luck! I am sure that some one will say that they got one for a lot less, it happens.
 
Hi Toot

I paid around $350 for the Belgium pistol, and around $300 for the converted EIC pistol, both in firing condition.
But that was YEARS ago, LOL. Today, those Belgium pistols, if in good condition seem to be going for $600-700.

Rick
 
I was told that some of these might be early reproductions, but not sure. Bannermans and other sellers carried these in their catalogs for years. Others have said they were assembled in large quantities from surplus belgian parts for trade items to Africa and other countries at or before 1900 into 1920's . Turner Kirkland had a number in his store for years and offered lots of replacement parts as well. Always curious as seen so many of the the exact same pattern over the years,
 
highwall_v2P - This is that Allen pepperbox. I can personally attest that it takes only one or two trigger-
Allen 36 001crop.jpg
pulls to empty all six barrels.
 
These long barreled pepper boxes feel very heavy to me and probably very uncomfortable to carry and use. Many are in very nice external shape which kinda supports theory that they were home/shop defense weapons and kept in drawers.
 
A lot of the pepperbox guns I've seen, and bought, were in well used condition. Think they might'a been carried. Believe they were less expensive new than were a Colt pocket models. And how much accuracy do you need across a poker table? For close-in quick defense I like the idea of no cocking, just pull the trigger coupla times.
But, then, I also prefer my S&W snubbie Plus P in my pocket, to a more complex high capacity 9.
 
Back when we were really into buying estates we got to talk to many family members. Well worn or broken items were almost always accompanied by statements like. "we use to play with it/them when we were kids". Items from collectors and older families were always in nicer shape and sometimes NIB. Many Early smiths, remingtons and other US issued Civil War items looked like they came from the arsenal. All actual CSA used items were almost always very, very worn. I is my belief that many items suffer from being handled, played with (and improved) long after they were obsolete.
 

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