4F powder

I still have a can of 4F that I bought some years back. Since I only carry one horn and prime and load from it. My normal load is 70 gr. of 3F in my 20 ga. . I was thinking of using the 4F as a main charge just to use it up. Any Ideas on how much I should reduce my load to shoot up my 4F? Hey Brit Smoothie chime in here.

I'm sure someone will tell you using 4F powder as a main powder charge in your 20 guage is fine but, I'm not one of them.

I might use it in a .36 or a .44 caliber cap and ball revolver and I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a .31 caliber cap and ball revolver but the jury is out on using it in any larger rifle or shotgun.

In a much heated thread about using 4F powder as a main powder charge Bretsmoothy was championing using 4F powder as a main powder charge in his smoothbores. That lasted up to the point where he actually measured the actual grain sizes of the "4F" powder he had been using.

The sizes he came up with equated with the size we Americans call 3F powder so it turned out that he hadn't been using 4F powder after all.

Here is a link to the 4 F question thread if your interested in it. It is 27 pages long so your in for a lot of reading if you follow it.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/4f-black-powder-question.121843/

Yeah, I'd suggest just selling or trading it for something that you'd use.

Or, just use it in the pan as it was intended until it's gone!

As I said in the much-debated thread, I used a full pound of FFFg at full load in my cheap, built at school CVA 45 with nary a hitch. Having survived that experience before there was an internet to tell me it was wrong, I'd say you could use it for main charge, just cut it back to say 45 grs or so to start, see what happens.
I can ALMOST PROMISE it wont explode or detonate, it didnt with me in my cheap-o special.

"ALMOST". hmm I wouldn't have posted at all.

That said I would use it myself but ain't gonna tell ya how so the powder cops wont wake me tonite and rough me up. Cant go wrong in the pan though if yer worried, after all yer puling the trigger?

Like Zonie said Brit may have been using a courser grain than we thought? I wonder if they sell what we on this side of the pond call 4f?

As I recall no one was able to provide any evidence whatsoever that 4f was in any way dangerous as a main charge and no one, when challenged was able to point to a single incident of it causing any harm to person or rifle in the aforementioned thread.

Seems I recall the upshot was know your limitations and there was more than one of us that felt 4f was suitable as a main charge.

TNGhost said:

As I recall no one was able to provide any evidence whatsoever that 4f was in any way dangerous as a main charge and no one, when challenged was able to point to a single incident of it causing any harm to person or rifle in the aforementioned thread.

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Dead men tell no tales.

I dont "feel" dead??

well, maybe a lil

Carbon 6 said:

Dead men tell no tales.

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Among others a coroner and a biographer would disagree with you

I f you have an example of someone perishing from using a 4f main charge, pony up.

If not please try to refrain from spreading irrational fear. There is enough of that going around already.

TNGhost said:

Among others a coroner and a biographer would disagree with you

I f you have an example of someone perishing from using a 4f main charge, pony up.

If not please try to refrain from spreading irrational fear. There is enough of that going around already.

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Failure to adhere to safety protocols is without a doubt,
"irrational" . It may also be clinically certifiable if one uses only anecdotal evidence to justify their assertion to the contrary of manufacturer recommendations.
You can surely pet a deadly snake without getting bitten, but to think that snake will never bite you or that you will never get bitten, is within the realm of fool.

Carbon 6 said:

Failure to adhere to safety protocols is without a doubt,
"irrational" . It may also be clinically certifiable if one uses only anecdotal evidence to justify their assertion to the contrary of manufacturer recommendations.
You can surely pet a deadly snake without getting bitten, but to think that snake will never bite you or that you will never get bitten, is ve they within the realm of fool.

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Why is it you feel compelled to frighten people into behaving as you believe they should and belittle anyone who doesn't buy your horse hockey?

All I know is about 1983 or so I was given almost a pound of DuPont FFFFg.

I was shooting a 45 cal CVA Kentucky percussion rifle, I'd built it in school back in the dark ages when it was allowed. My dad bought the kit for a grand $100 from Heard's hardware store.

My standard load was 60grs of whatever powder I could find. Usually it was FFg or FFFg, depending on what the store had in stock. The guy at the store told me there was no difference between fffg and ffg. I used spit patch round ball and was fairly deadly with it.

I poured the ffffg into my horn and never thought about it being different from any other black powder.

It didn't blow the hammer back, didn't kick harder, didn't give me an extra 20 yards of range. The only change I noticed was it seemed to foul a little less. I didn't have a pressure strain gauge, a copper crusher, or any other way to estimate the pressure of the load.

Is it concrete proof that it's safe? No. Is it concrete proof it is Unsafe? No.

It appears that some people don't know what the F they're talking about ....

or just do what most people do with unused unwanted old powder- just put on your lawn or in the garden!

The powder I used has an AVERAGE measurement akin to 3f. It also has finer granulations in it.

Personally speaking and what I have always said is I would use it.
I have said before that when I do come across some 4f I will buy it to demonstrate that in view of the fact there is no manufacturers explicitly banning its use in any firearm (unless asked for an opinion in writing or verbally) and vintage ammunitions large and small used it, that it is safe to use under all normal applications. Until then you must choose for yourself.

My decision is mine and based on years of asking and searching for concrete evidence that it is dangerous and none has been produced!

So, although you all have pretty much convinced me to use 3f in my pans, i still have a pound of 4f to use up from my first long-ago foray into muzzleloading. In keeping with using 10g less fffg than you would ffg for an equivalent load, would the same hold true for using 4f, just dropping another 10g?

Asking for my dog...

Centurion said:

So, although you all have pretty much convinced me to use 3f in my pans, i still have a pound of 4f to use up from my first long-ago foray into muzzleloading. In keeping with using 10g less fffg than you would ffg for an equivalent load, would the same hold true for using 4f, just dropping another 10g?

Asking for my dog...

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My advice is to stop asking for advice from the "hold my beer and watch this" crowd and follow the manufacturer's recommendations. The pressure developed and burn rate are not linear.

Some people have no regard for life or limb, they are fearless. They are also dangerous.
Choose your mentors wisely, after all you are playing with guns and explosives.

bud in pa said:

I still have a can of 4F that I bought some years back. Since I only carry one horn and prime and load from it. My normal load is 70 gr. of 3F in my 20 ga. . I was thinking of using the 4F as a main charge just to use it up. Any Ideas on how much I should reduce my load to shoot up my 4F? Hey Brit Smoothie chime in here.

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Use it to remove stumps.

Carbon 6 said:

My advice is to stop asking for advice from the "hold my beer and watch this" crowd and follow the manufacturer's recommendations. The pressure developed and burn rate are not linear.

Some people have no regard for life or limb, they are fearless. They are also dangerous.
Choose your mentors wisely, after all you are playing with guns and explosives.

Click to expand...

Evidence?