Reproduction & Original.

Certus said:

Hi,
I live in the UK and following the ban on the ownership of breech loading pistols and revolvers here in 1997 I started shooting reproduction muzzle loading revolvers in order to continue with the sport I love.
I must admit that once I got myself organised, I really enjoyed shooting these old style revolvers and hardly missed my Smith & Wesson 686 from earlier days.
During the current Corona Virus lockdown I started spending too much time on the internet and often found myself browsing auctions and antique gun dealers looking at original examples of the Uberti reproduction Remington 1858 revolver I now shoot on a regular basis.
Although original firearms from this period are not cheap, I eventually found this Remington New Model Navy which was not only within my price range but was also described as being in usable condition.
Although I wasn't able to actually view the revolver before buying, I received lots of pictures and it was exactly in the condition described when it actually arrived. I have since had plenty of time to strip and thoroughly inspect the mechanics etc and have found the timing and lock-up to still be precise and surprisingly, there remains quite a lot of rifling remaining in the barrel for a gun made in 1864.
Although original firearms of this period can be bought without licensing in the UK, reproductions must be recorded on a Firearms Certificate and originals must also be entered on the certificate should you wish shoot them.
Outdoor ranges have just reopened again here in the UK and I'm now deciding if I should leave the old Remington in well earned retirement or start shooting it again albeit sparingly and with light loads.
What do you think ?

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Greetings Certus,

I was the Team Armourer for the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team to the World Championships of the International Muzzle Loading Committee, held in Wedgnok, UK in 1996 and 1998. Original Muzzle Loading Small Arms are fired in that competition for the most prestigious events, while reproductions are also fired in competition.

I must have been asked a half dozen times by members of the British Team, if I or anyone else on our team had either an original Remington 1858 Army or an original Springfield M1816 type musket for sale? So you are in fine company with your newly acquired Remington.

All firearms had to undergo "Scrutiny" as the British Team called it or what we would call a safety inspection, prior to being fired in that competition. Besides checking the half cock notch and trigger pull, it is important to check the cylinder holes align properly with the barrel, as each hole is rotated in alignment with the barrel. This is something you can do yourself, or have a competent gunsmith check it for you. I KNOW you have plenty of competent gunsmiths in the UK who could do it for you, but it is not that difficult to do yourself.

First, ensure the revolver is unloaded by visual and manual inspection. Then get a small torch (flashlight to we Americans) or pen light. Cock the piece and look down the barrel from the muzzle while you shine the torch into the area of the nipple on the end of each cylinder hole. (The nipples or cones have to be clean and free from obstruction to do this.) You can then easily see if each cylinder hole properly aligns with the barrel as you rotate all 6 chamber holes around. As long as they align, the revolver can be fired safely.

I would not be at all concerned with firing light target loads in the revolver once the inspection is done. Of course, please remember to clean it after firing on the range or no later than when you get home that evening. Most of the damage I've seen done to originals was when they were shot and not cleaned for days or even weeks later.

Gus

P.S. I was looking forward to seeing members of the British Team shoot original Brown Bess Muskets in those matches, but none did, much to my disappointment. One member of the British Team informed me the originals don't shoot as accurately as "Charleville" type muskets. So my next question was why they wanted Springfield U.S. M1816 type muskets to shoot, when they most likely could have purchased Charleville or St. Etienne Muskets more reasonably? With a twinkle in his eye, one British Team member carefully explained, "We would prefer one made in one of our old Colonies, to one made in, well......France." I almost choked on the coffee I was sipping, then let out a huge belly laugh, while he chuckled.

What is the cut-off date in the UK for a gun to be considered an antique? In the US it's 1898. Not sure about any other country.

Artificer said:

Greetings Certus,

I was the Team Armourer for the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team to the World Championships of the International Muzzle Loading Committee, held in Wedgnok, UK in 1996 and 1998. Original Muzzle Loading Small Arms are fired in that competition for the most prestigious events, while reproductions are also fired in competition.

I must have been asked a half dozen times by members of the British Team, if I or anyone else on our team had either an original Remington 1858 Army or an original Springfield M1816 type musket for sale? So you are in fine company with your newly acquired Remington.

All firearms had to undergo "Scrutiny" as the British Team called it or what we would call a safety inspection, prior to being fired in that competition. Besides checking the half cock notch and trigger pull, it is important to check the cylinder holes align properly with the barrel, as each hole is rotated in alignment with the barrel. This is something you can do yourself, or have a competent gunsmith check it for you. I KNOW you have plenty of competent gunsmiths in the UK who could do it for you, but it is not that difficult to do yourself.

First, ensure the revolver is unloaded by visual and manual inspection. Then get a small torch (flashlight to we Americans) or pen light. Cock the piece and look down the barrel from the muzzle while you shine the torch into the area of the nipple on the end of each cylinder hole. (The nipples or cones have to be clean and free from obstruction to do this.) You can then easily see if each cylinder hole properly aligns with the barrel as you rotate all 6 chamber holes around. As long as they align, the revolver can be fired safely.

I would not be at all concerned with firing light target loads in the revolver once the inspection is done. Of course, please remember to clean it after firing on the range or no later than when you get home that evening. Most of the damage I've seen done to originals was when they were shot and not cleaned for days or even weeks later.

Gus

P.S. I was looking forward to seeing members of the British Team shoot original Brown Bess Muskets in those matches, but none did, much to my disappointment. One member of the British Team informed me the originals don't shoot as accurately as "Charleville" type muskets. So my next question was why they wanted Springfield U.S. M1816 type muskets to shoot, when they most likely could have purchased Charleville or St. Etienne Muskets more reasonably? With a twinkle in his eye, one British Team member carefully explained, "We would prefer one made in one of our old Colonies, to one made in, well......France." I almost choked on the coffee I was sipping, then let out a huge belly laugh, while he chuckled.

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Hi Gus,
Thanks for the very helpful advice regarding the necessary inspections before considering the use of an original firearm.
I have fully stripped and inspected the Remington as you have indicated and would feel happy to shoot it sparingly with light loads. The timing, cylinder alignment and lock-up are almost equal to my reproduction and there appears to be a good amount of rifling remaining with no serious pitting evident in the barrel.
I always field strip and clean my reproduction revolvers as soon as possible after every session and also perform a complete strip and clean / inspection monthly which seems to keep things running nicely.
If I decide to shoot my original, I will obviously need to do a complete strip and clean / inspection after every session to be sure that I'm not harming an important piece of history. We can still obtain a range of limited spares that are made to fit original revolvers in the UK which thankfully include the minor items most likely to fail with use.
Brian

We had an original 1858 Remington New Model Army that was in my family for several generations. It was converted to cartridge at some point. It was relieved from our custody in the mid '80s during a burglary at my mother's house. The perp was caught and when the police asked about the 1858, he stated he sold it for $50.
It still sickens me... (

a gun is not a gun until it discharges. if it sits around it is just something to look at. same with a guitar or banjo ect. they are just objects to look at unless picked up and played. by reading what you write i bet you guns are cleaner than clean. use real black and clean them well. pure lead balls with a good grease wont wear anything out. clean well and i bet their will be no wear. dont make a magnum out of it like some guys try to do with every gun they own. i own a man of no name uberti 38 special. i load the 38 case with triple 7 a wad and a greased round ball. believe me it has plenty of snap. more than it needs. wild bill did alright with loads like that. he shot his guns every day then cleaned them good and reloaded them. your gun will live long than you.

Col. Batguano said:

What is the cut-off date in the UK for a gun to be considered an antique? In the US it's 1898. Not sure about any other country.

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Hi,
An antique firearm is not defined in the law but guidelines from the UK Home Office suggest the following may be considered as antique:

• A muzzle loading firearm of original manufacture (not a modern made replica or reproduction).
• Any breech-loading firearm using a rim-fire cartridge exceeding .23 (but not 9mm).
• A breech-loading firearm of original manufacture, using an ignition system other than rim-fire or centre (e.g. flintlock or percussion).
• A breech loading centre fire firearm originally chambered for cartridges, which are now obsolete AND retaining that original chambering.
• Any qualifying firearm can be acquired without licence for "Curio or Ornament" purposes in the UK but must be recorded on a Firearm Certificate with the associated strict restrictions should the intention be to use it for its originally intended purpose.

Thank you. The 4th one down on "obsolete cartridges" could be a tricky one. I could elaborate further in a PM.

Move to the USA, it would make everything easier. i closest friend is from london. you should see his gun collection. he lives very rural like i do just 3 miles as the crow flies.

Let's make it simple -

This - Any qualifying firearm can be acquired without licence for "Curio or Ornament" purposes in the UK but must be recorded on a Firearm Certificate with the associated strict restrictions should the intention be to use it for its originally intended purpose.'

Means, that IF you have, say, an ORIGINAL Enfield P53 rifle, or, indeed, ANY other muzzleloader from the ACW, you can walk into the militaria store or what-have-you, and providing you are over 18, you can walk out with it - suitably concealed, of course.

BUT - IF you want to shoot it, then -

1. You must be a full member of a gun club.

2. You must have a Firearms Certificate [FAC].

3. If you want to shoot it with black powder, then you must also have a license to acquire, transport and hold x amount of Class 1 Explosive, and a suitable Home Office-approved container in which to store it..

3. The FAC must bear the wording 'authorised to acquire and possess [number] .577calibre rifle'. THAT rifle must be then entered on your FAC on the date that you wished to own it as a Section 1 [rifled] firearm], just like any modern firearm or modern replica of an old one. You must then inform the FAC issuing authority - your county police firearms and explosives licensing department, of your actions.

Should you subsequently have had your fill of shooting it, then you can take it 'off ticket', again, informing the police of your decision.

You'll note, however, that I have made no mention of a 'similar calibre' like the .58cal Springfield of 1861. In UK law, it is a different calibre, and must be applied for in the same way as that undertaken to get the .577cal on your 'ticket'. You just MIGHT get away with asking for a .577/.58cal rifle, but nobody I know has managed to do it.

I'm not going to mention the many breechloading firearms current at the same time as the muzzleloaders, as the forum does not support them.

Britsmoothy said:

I would shoot the thing with standard loads. Why the heck not?
It's not going to thank you for nothing is it really.
Nice find

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Yup, got to say if it can’t handle a full charge it’s unsafe with a half charge. If the innards are too worn for full charge it’s going to preform poor with half charge.

You have to factor in the collectors value of these gun as well.

If it is in original condition and an overall good specimen, I'd avoid shooting it.

Future collectors and curators will benefit from a well preserved example and you could be losing a lot of money if you break or where out the gun.

I'd keep them gun, but would retire it. Repros are made for a reason and make excellent shooters that you don't have to worry about.

Britsmoothy said:

I would shoot the thing with standard loads. Why the heck not?
It's not going to thank you for nothing is it really.
Nice find

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Smokey Plainsman said:

You have to factor in the collectors value of these gun as well.

If it is in original condition and an overall good specimen, I'd avoid shooting it.

Future collectors and curators will benefit from a well preserved example and you could be losing a lot of money if you break or where out the gun.

I'd keep them gun, but would retire it. Repros are made for a reason and make excellent shooters that you don't have to worry about.

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Actually took this ‘original’ out for a bit of exercise a few weeks ago and shot a couple of cylinders through it. First shot it in the 1960s with my old man. Have owned and shot it regularly a few times a year since it became mine to safeguard for future generations in the mid 1970s. It has outlived multiple reproduction guns. Components on it may become worn and possibly break. They will be repaired or or replaced, just have they have since the gun left the Remington factory over 150 years ago. And when it’s time to move it along and someone asks if it still shoots, I can honestly say yes.

SDSmlf said:

Actually took this ‘original’ out for a bit of exercise a few weeks ago and shot a couple of cylinders through it. First shot it in the 1960s with my old man. Have owned and shot it regularly a few times a year since it became mine to safeguard for future generations in the mid 1970s. It has outlived multiple reproduction guns. Components on it may become worn and possibly break. They will be repaired or or replaced, just have they have since the gun left the Remington factory over 150 years ago. And when it’s time to move it along and someone asks if it still shoots, I can honestly say yes.
View attachment 53310

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The bluing is very good and the cartoosh very sharp.

This is just about the nicest looking '58 I've ever seen. There may be examples with more blue but this is what I think of when I thimk of a beautiful antique gun finish.

SDSmlf said:

View attachment 53310

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Brian,

Those old Remingtons are sturdy revolvers. It sounds as if you are very knowledgeable and you have gotten to know that fine old revolver inside and out. My dad had a variety of original muzzleloaders and cap and ball revolvers, and he never hesitated to shoot them, if they could be shot safely. I don't think shooting these guns with appropriate loads does them any harm, provided they are properly cleaned after every session. I really think the best thing for them is to handle them frequently, and the worst thing is to put them in a dark cabinet and ignore them. I've seen a lot of guns come out of storage all rusty.

It is clear from your posts that you derive a great deal of enjoyment from shooting and you take meticulous care of your guns. I would encourage you to shoot that old Remington, and give us a range report!

Notchy Bob

I would have to shoot it if it were me, just to "experience " the history.

I have 2 1861 Springfields that I am going to clean up and shoot. Not a lot, but there's just something magical about shooting an original old firearm, knowing it was likely fired during the Civil War, possibly at other men. Some of the Minies that left these rifles may have taken men's lives . It kinda gives you a reflective pause to really look at them and think about it, especially being a combat vet myself .

It's like you are a part of its history now.

The repros are for banging around at the range etc but the originals are what really stirs the soul

Not to go off target. But When I read the restrictions placed on our foreign friends it absolutely breaks my heart.

Smokey Plainsman said:

The bluing is very good and the cartoosh very sharp.

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Don’t have the name in front of me, but did look up cartouche and who inspected/ stamped the gun, based on old Dixie catalogs as a reference.

jonathan butcher said:

This is just about the nicest looking '58 I've ever seen. There may be examples with more blue but this is what I think of when I thimk of a beautiful antique gun finish.

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I’ll just say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. While I am proud of this gun, there are plenty of nicer examples out there. That said, it is the best one in the family that o know of.

Notchy Bob said:

Brian,

Those old Remingtons are sturdy revolvers. It sounds as if you are very knowledgeable and you have gotten to know that fine old revolver inside and out. My dad had a variety of original muzzleloaders and cap and ball revolvers, and he never hesitated to shoot them, if they could be shot safely. I don't think shooting these guns with appropriate loads does them any harm, provided they are properly cleaned after every session. I really think the best thing for them is to handle them frequently, and the worst thing is to put them in a dark cabinet and ignore them. I've seen a lot of guns come out of storage all rusty.

It is clear from your posts that you derive a great deal of enjoyment from shooting and you take meticulous care of your guns. I would encourage you to shoot that old Remington, and give us a range report!

Notchy Bob

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I am proud of my guns, but in my opinion, nothing that exceptional. Grew up shooting original long rifles and handguns. No real proof, but appears the Remington shown previously can be traced in the family back to the late 1800s. The old man, as best I can tell, used this particular 1858 as a ‘backup’ while hunting until he purchased a Ruger Black Hawk in the late 1950s (yes I also have that gun). As a youngster I got to shoot the 1858 all I wanted as long as I reloaded as best I can recall. Was not taking notes, I was just learning how to shoot and living a dream. Remember what was on TV in the 1960s. Never really thought about historical importance much, though it seems important to some. I was just having the time of my life.