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Gun Powder "substitutes"

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Cyanide is a very simple ion consisting of one atom of carbon triple bonded to one atom of nitrogen (-CN negative). While it is not listed as a byproduct of burning Pyrodex in the MSDS, its presence is quite possible.
 
It begins in France, the black powder is not officially forbidden but we can't dispose more than four pounds for each guy et it become very hard to find powder, so.......
Three years ago th BP was free to buy everywhere but with the new govnt. and with new laws all is going to be forbidden when concerning arms....:(:(
Everybody in the New World Order KNOWS the French are jumping up and down to have another revolution. And the Americans are busy planning the next Civil War. Can't let the peasants have the fixin's to hurt themselves, can they?
 
Everybody in the New World Order KNOWS the French are jumping up and down to have another revolution. And the Americans are busy planning the next Civil War. Can't let the peasants have the fixin's to hurt themselves, can they?
I don't want enter in a discuss that can which can drift into a form of an exchange of political ideas.
All I can answer is that the French people is not for a mode or a form of revolution like you think (it was in 1789 and we are in 2020) but the new govt. is well going for a kind of dictatorial comportment and the french problem is there. This is the reason why the people demonstrate every day and go on strike: they are not for the "new revolution", they are only for order and peace in the country...
About America I have nothing to say: I don't know what is happening there...
 
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I don't want enter in a discuss that can which can drift into a form of an exchange of political ideas.
...
Excellent decision. :thumb:

Political discussions outside the "American Politics" section in the Premium Members area on the forum are not allowed although sometimes a few comments that boarder on politics occasionally are made.
 
I don't want enter in a discuss that can which can drift into a form of an exchange of political ideas.
All I can answer is that the French people is not for a mode or a form of revolution like you think (it was in 1789 and we are in 2020) but the new govt. is well going for a kind of dictatorial comportment and the french problem is there. This is the reason why the people demonstrate every day and go on strike: they are not for the "new revolution", they are only for order and peace in the country...
About America I have nothing to say: I don't know what is happening there...
Please excuse my facetious humor.
 
Just some facts: Pyrodex (or any perchlorated substitute) residue is highly acidic and FAR more corrosive than BP residue.

Malarky.

With the exception of Black Horn 209 all the black powder substitutes contain potassium perchlorate. Except for Pyrodex none are unduly corrosive. i'm a dedicated user of Black MZ. In deer season my guns often go uncleaned for days in nice weather with no rust.

The ingredient in Pyrodex that causes corrosion is the same ingredient that makes black powder residue corrosive, sulfur.

There is no cyanide in Pyrodex.

This trash came from the most revered "expert on black powder". Yep, he knows black powder but needs an education on black powder substitutes.
 
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Cyanide is a very simple ion consisting of one atom of carbon triple bonded to one atom of nitrogen (-CN negative). While it is not listed as a byproduct of burning Pyrodex in the MSDS, its presence is quite possible.
If cyanide was a bi-product of Pyrodex burning, Hodgdon would have been required to say that this was happening in their MSDS.
They made no mention of cyanide in their report.

Note this part of their report:
Hazardous Decomposition or Byproducts: CO, CO2, SO2, non-metallic oxides, and suspended particulate matter from burning.

There is no cyanide in the gasses produced by burning Pyrodex.
 
The APP is OK for the SASS crowd hitting a steel plate a 7 yards, but is an utter disappointment if consistency and accuracy are required, even if it cleans up easy. It loses power once the container is open, and is inconsistent from container to container. The stick versions seem even more useless than the loose stuff.... the classic square peg in a round hole. Just my opinion.
APP was an utter failure when I was participating in the SASS and I would never again even try it. The crud ring it produces is bad enough but the inconsistent behavior (velocity), the weakening of it once the can is opened and the fact that it doesn't even make good fertilizer when dumped in the yard proved it to be wholly unacceptable. Pyrodex has it's own draw backs and does indeed cause more corrosion quicker than the holy black. The only substitute I found acceptable was Triple 7 and only the 2f granulation when carefully loaded into cartridges. It's performance in muzzle loaders wasn't great but it also was the only sub I ever tried that gave a wicked hang fire that nearly dislocated my shoulder. T-7 burns much hotter than real black and would work harden brass cases to the point of splitting after as few as 3 reloads. Using 3f T-7 in a cartridge is down right dangerous. 12 years of CAS/SASS was enough for me. I had fun and then when I stopped having fun I stopped.
 
I've used Pyrodex for over 40 years and my guns have no ill effect from it. It doesn't start making pit immediately but it is correct it's more corrosive than the real stuff but either way the gun needs to be cleaned soon and cleaned well whether you use subs or the real thing. I know this first hand, not passed down from person to person to person.
 
APP was an utter failure when I was participating in the SASS and I would never again even try it. The crud ring it produces is bad enough but the inconsistent behavior (velocity), the weakening of it once the can is opened and the fact that it doesn't even make good fertilizer when dumped in the yard proved it to be wholly unacceptable.
My use of APP was pretty limited when I shot SASS. I did not reload pistol cylinders during a match, as all mine were preloaded. Any crud ring was a non issue. As far as performance, if a ball left the barrel it would hit the short range steel target... but as you state, once the container is opened, performance changes quickly. And not for the good.
 
There is no cyanide in Pyrodex. If there was, it would have to be listed in the Material Data Safety Sheet.
The information below is a copy of the Hodgdon Pyrodex MSDS

"...
Section II. HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS/IDENTITY INFORMATION
Hazardous Components
(Chemical Identity: Common Name(s) OSHA PEL ACGIH TLV Other Limits %(optional)
Charcoal NA NA NA
Sulfur NA NA NA
Potassium Nitrate NA NA NA
Potassium Perchlorate NA NA NA
Graphite NA 2.5 mg/m3 Respirable Dust
Other: Other ingredients are trade secrets, but can be disclosed per 29 CFR 1910.1200(i)
Section III. PHYSICAL/CHEMICAL CHARACTERISTICS
Boiling Point Not Applicable Specific Gravity (H2O =1): Bulk density is 0.75 (g/cc)
Vapor Pressure (mm HG): Not Applicable Melting Point: Not Applicable
Vapor Density (AIR = 1) Not Applicable Evaporation Rate: Not Applicable
Solubility in Water: Partially (Butyl Acetate = 1)
Appearance and Odor: Medium to dark pray granular solid. Slight odor when ignited.
Section IV. FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARD DATA
Auto-ignition Temperature: 740 (F) (Pellets: 500[f]) Flammable Limits: N/A LEL: N/A UEL: N/A
Extinguishing Media: For unattended fire prevention, water can be used to disburse burning Pyrodex. Pyrodex has its own oxygen supply, so flame
smothering techniques are ineffective. Water may be used on unburnt Pyrodex to retard further spread of fire.
Special Fire Fighting Procedures: Pyrodex is extremely flammable and may deflagrate. Get away and evacuate the area.
Unusual Fire and Explosion Hazards: As with any pyrotechnic, if under confinement or piled in moderate quantities, Pyrodex can explode
violently, toxic fumes such as sulfur dioxide are emitted while burning.
Section V. REACTIVITY DATA
Stability Unstable: Conditions to Avoid: Avoid storage at temperatures above 150[F],
Stable: X impact, hot embers, sparks and static discharges.
Page 1 of 3
file://C:\DOCUME~1\reeder\LOCALS~1\Temp\triGEHML.htm 7/8/2002
Incompatibility (Materials to Avoid) Metal powders and acids
Hazardous Decomposition or Byproducts: CO, CO2, SO2, non-metallic oxides, and suspended particulate matter from burning.
Hazardous May Occur: Conditions to Avoid: Not known to occur.
Polymerization: Will Not Occur: X
Section VI. HEALTH HAZARD DATA
Route(s) of Entry: Inhalation?: Yes Skin?: Yes Ingestion?: Yes
Health Hazards (acute and Chronic): TLV unknown for ingestion of dust, Acute oral LD50 in rats is calculated to be 4.0 [g/kg body weight].
Carcinogenicity: No NTP? No IARC? No OSHA regulated?: No
Signs and Symptoms of Exposure: Burning or itching of the eye, nose, or skin; shortness of breath.
Medical Conditions Generally Aggravated by Exposure: Some people may be unusually sensitive to the product.
Emergency and First Aid Procedures: Remove patient from exposure, and if skin contact, wash affected area with copious amounts of water.
Section VII. PRECAUTIONS FOR SAFE HANDLING AND USE
Steps to Be Taken in Case Material is Released of Spilled: Do not smoke in the area. Powder should be scooped or swept up using non-sparking,
conductive tools. This should be done in a manner so that no dusting occurs.
Waste Disposal Method: Wet thoroughly with water to dissolve the powder. Comply with all federal, state, and local laws.
Precautions to Be Taken in Handling and Storing: Pyrodex is a solid propellant which is designed to propell a mass. Thus appropriate care should
be taken to avoid heavy confinement and ignition sources such as, but not limited to, heat, static discharge, embers, friction, and impact. ..."

For the curious, here is what the two oxidizers used in Pyrodex consist of:

Potassium perchlorate consists of potassium, chlorine and oxygen.
Potassium nitrage consists of potassium, nitrogen and oxygen.

with all due respect....the "trade secrets" ( AKA Proprietary) clause in MSDs are routinely used to keep the public from knowing the dangerous ingredients in products.......i've had classes in this and dealt with the SDS/MSDS/MSD for 34 yrs+364 days.
 
The "expert" who claimed Pyrodex generates dangerous quantities of cyanide on firing is the same guy who claimed that Triple Seven is not unduly corrosive because it contains no potassium perchlorate. Fact is that Triple Seven contains a huge slug of potassium perchlorate. i corrected the guy but my post was removed.

The "expert" hangs out on another forum. Another member of that site mentioned that he taught muzzleloaders to kids and used Pyrodex powder. The "expert" claimed dicyanamide in the Pyrodex generates cyanide that could poison the kids.

Muzzleloader advocates picked up on the "experts" posts.

Pyrodex first came out in about 1976. It contains about six percent dicyanamide. If the stuff generated dangerous amounts of cyanide on firing there would have been lawsuits.
 
I'm confused. Is Cyanide put in the powder or is it a by product of combustion?

If it is put in the powder, WHY ? What purpose does it serve ?
If it is a byproduct of combustion, which chemical(s) produces the cyanide ?

Lastly, who is this "expert" you guys keep referencing ?
 
Charcoal NA NA NA
Sulfur NA NA NA
Potassium Nitrate NA NA NA
Potassium Perchlorate NA NA NA.

Ok, early morning and Im reading this post on the MSDS pf pyro and the song came to mind by Steam 1969 ;

Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey, goodbye

He'll never love you, the way that I love you
'Cause if he did, no no, he wouldn't make you cry
He might be thrillin' baby but a-my love
(My love, my love)

So dog-gone willin', so kiss him
(I wanna see you kiss him, wanna see you kiss him)
Go on and kiss him goodbye, now

Na na na na, hey hey, goodbye
Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey, goodbye
 
Cyanide is not an ingredient of the powder. The "expert" claims cyanide is generated upon firing.

My information comes from a man who was a chemist involved with multiple black powder manufacturing companies-and in the development of many various formulations for substitutes. He has written extensively on the subject.
 
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