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Jaeger (transistional period)? Help identifying it...

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I inherited this from a friend. I don't know much about muzzleloaders, but what I've found is it might be a Jaeger rifle from the "transitional" period (based on its barrel length).

Any information or input is greatly appreciated, especially when it comes to the origin, maker, and where I might find a quality replacement lock and jaeger profile barrel? I'm not planning on selling it, but restoring it to the point it can be safely fired and kept in the collection with long denied TLC. Any idea what the value of such a rifle would be?

When I first got it, it was heavily soiled and rusted, and the barrel was held on by old dried out masking tape. I machined a new screw for the barrel tang, and cleaned and repaired the lock as best I could. I cleaned the stock with laqeur thinner, and then coated it with linseed oil and then a 50/50 mixture of beeswax and mineral oil. Hand rubbed it to a satin sheen. 100x better than it was, but I did not sand it nor try to re-blue the barrel.

I plan to keep the old barrel and lock, even if replaced, so that it can always be remade to it's original (or at least as I received it) condition.

As I got it, the lock wasn't functioning at all. I did the best I could (as a machinist not a gunsmith), but there was too much damage at the sear to be safe at full cock. I'd like to either send it to a decent gunsmith who could rework this lock or get a new lock that wouldn't require me cutting the stock to fit it.

Thanks for the help...
 

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Probably 1830's-40's from the famous gunsmithing family Pistor.

Not sure what the mechanism in the middle of the lockplate is. Perhaps a safety?
 
Probably 1830's-40's from the famous gunsmithing family Pistor.

Not sure what the mechanism in the middle of the lockplate is. Perhaps a safety?
Thank you! The mechanism looks like it prevented the hammer from striking when in place. It's not what I'd call functional now, it's loose and appears to have quite a bit of wear.

I had no idea it might be that old. I appreciate the info, it gives me a place to start looking for the history behind the maker. Thank you.
 
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The lock on your rifle is very similar to one I own. The outside hammer stop was used as another safety precaution and allowed a hunter to carry the rifle capped while out in pursuit of game. Stophel's date of manufacture is right on IMHO. My rifle came out of Zella just outside of Suhl in the same era as your piece. These gunsmiths did a very fine job of lock making and the workmanship would even be considered top notch by todays standards.
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Just a note - the barrel was not blued, it might have been browned, possibly even oil-blacked, but bluing was confined in those days to screw heads, and where the threaded ends showed through a mechanism like a lock.
 
Just a note - the barrel was not blued, it might have been browned, possibly even oil-blacked, but bluing was confined in those days to screw heads, and where the threaded ends showed through a mechanism like a lock.
Thank you for the info.
 
The lock on your rifle is very similar to one I own. The outside hammer stop was used as another safety precaution and allowed a hunter to carry the rifle capped while out in pursuit of game. Stophel's date of manufacture is right on IMHO. My rifle came out of Zella just outside of Suhl in the same era as your piece. These gunsmiths did a very fine job of lock making and the workmanship would even be considered top notch by todays standards.
P1000811.jpg


P1000841.jpg
Thank you for the info. The inside of my lock looks very close to yours as well... I'll take a pic and post it.
 
The Jaeger, the flintlock, short barrel, large caliber, hunting rifle from the Germanic states (Germany was not a single, united country back then), likely came to the English colonies with Germanic immigrants. It's pretty certain that Germanic rifle builders were familiar with the Jaeger style of rifle. A "transition" appears to have taken place in the 18th century, where the rifle builders developed the "long rifle" in the American colonies, and later the United States. It was a transition in North America alone, as longer barreled rifles, with smaller calibers, and "fast" twist rates were known in the Germanic states at the time. From the extant examples, it appears that the rifles began their trend toward longer barrels in The Colonies, beginning in the 1750's, and continued for decades while at the same time the size of the commonly found calibers were reduced.

LD
 
The Jaeger, the flintlock, short barrel, large caliber, hunting rifle from the Germanic states (Germany was not a single, united country back then), likely came to the English colonies with Germanic immigrants. It's pretty certain that Germanic rifle builders were familiar with the Jaeger style of rifle. A "transition" appears to have taken place in the 18th century, where the rifle builders developed the "long rifle" in the American colonies, and later the United States. It was a transition in North America alone, as longer barreled rifles, with smaller calibers, and "fast" twist rates were known in the Germanic states at the time. From the extant examples, it appears that the rifles began their trend toward longer barrels in The Colonies, beginning in the 1750's, and continued for decades while at the same time the size of the commonly found calibers were reduced.

LD
Thanks for the info. Still scratching my head some on this one... it seems to have the longer barrel style that was known to have taken hold in the colonies, but the barrel is marked "G & W PISTOR IN SCHMALKALDEN". Did they make longer rifles in the Germanic states to export to the colonies? I love a mystery! Thanks again.
 
Not sure what the mystery is here... It's a thoroughly typical mid 19th century German rifle.
Did the German rifles have the longer barrels too? I'm not versed in any of this, just trying to figure out where this rifle fits into the history. I was under the impression the German Jaegers featured shorter fatter barrels, and when the makers went to the Colonies they started making the longer more slender rifles, starting with the "transitional" period between the two.

Is there any book that covers the German gunmakers and weapons of that era? I'd love to learn more about it.
Thanks again.
 
The barrel looks like it's probably 30 some odd inches long. That is not the least bit unusual for German rifles of the 18th or 19th centuries. Many were shorter, but it's not a hard and fast rule. Some were longer. The long rifle was not an American invention. I'm not a proponent of the "transitional" position.

I have been trying to get a handle on Swiss rifles, without much success. What little I have been able to ascertain, show barrels that are universally long. Many of the gunsmiths that came here were from Switzerland and nearby SW Germany. I believe they brought the long rifle with them, at least to a degree. We know longer rifle barrels were desired here, and I have read that Moravian records in Bethlehem/Christian's Spring show that they were ordering longer rifle barrels from Germany.
 
The barrel looks like it's probably 30 some odd inches long. That is not the least bit unusual for German rifles of the 18th or 19th centuries. Many were shorter, but it's not a hard and fast rule. Some were longer. The long rifle was not an American invention. I'm not a proponent of the "transitional" position.

I have been trying to get a handle on Swiss rifles, without much success. What little I have been able to ascertain, show barrels that are universally long. Many of the gunsmiths that came here were from Switzerland and nearby SW Germany. I believe they brought the long rifle with them, at least to a degree. We know longer rifle barrels were desired here, and I have read that Moravian records in Bethlehem/Christian's Spring show that they were ordering longer rifle barrels from Germany.
Thanks for the clarification.
 
I was under the impression the German Jaegers featured shorter fatter barrels, and when the makers went to the Colonies they started making the longer more slender rifles,

You are right and wrong. There were so many variations of Jaegers few absolutes can be attributed to them. e.g. "all were very large caliber". Not so. They have been found in many calibers including small. "They didn't use a patch and the ball had to be pounded down the bore with a mallet". Might have been a few like that but for the most part they loaded like we do today with a patch. "All were short barreled". Well....depends on what you would call short. True, the Jaeger was the predecessor to the American longrifle and, generally speaking barrel lengths grew. George Schumway had a great book detailing many Jaegers. My copy is now with another member here.
 
Ver nice rifle, I am sure if you get onto a good locksmith it can be repaired. If the original bore is to poor to use you might get Bobby Hoyt from Pennsylvania to fresh it out. I have got some fairly rough bores going again with some thorough cleaning. A greased felt wad over powder works well with .50 and over if the bore is a little rough, with a lot of shooting it may come up fine.
 
You are right and wrong. There were so many variations of Jaegers few absolutes can be attributed to them. e.g. "all were very large caliber". Not so. They have been found in many calibers including small. "They didn't use a patch and the ball had to be pounded down the bore with a mallet". Might have been a few like that but for the most part they loaded like we do today with a patch. "All were short barreled". Well....depends on what you would call short. True, the Jaeger was the predecessor to the American longrifle and, generally speaking barrel lengths grew. George Schumway had a great book detailing many Jaegers. My copy is now with another member here.
Thank you! I imagine a lot of variations in the path of arms development were going on. Being nearly 200 years ago, there's not a wealth of info on the subject, but every bit of it is interesting. I found the book you spoke about on Amazon and ebay, both selling for just shy of $40. Bit out of my price range, but I do a search at the local library and college system to see if they have one to check out. Thanks for the information.
 
Ver nice rifle, I am sure if you get onto a good locksmith it can be repaired. If the original bore is to poor to use you might get Bobby Hoyt from Pennsylvania to fresh it out. I have got some fairly rough bores going again with some thorough cleaning. A greased felt wad over powder works well with .50 and over if the bore is a little rough, with a lot of shooting it may come up fine.
Thank you!

I'll use a borescope to check the bore closely for any heavily pitted areas, cracks, or tight spots before I risk firing it. I don't want to blow up a piece of history, but it would be nice to hear it shot again. If its safe to do so, I'll take your advice on greased felt patches and use an undersized ball to avoid an overpressure. I appreciate the ideas.

I was an Army Sniper before being medically retired a few years ago, so firearms are in the blood. I've got a decent and varied collection of arms, mostly modern. Part of the fun is bringing them back to life even if for just a few rounds now and then. Right now I'm restoring a Carcano carbine just finished fabricating a new front sight for a Zimmer Schuetzen 4mm indoor target rifle.

It's been nearly 20 years since I've fired any black powder gun, I'll have to learn more about it before trying again. I've got a .45 Kentucky pistol I built as a kit when I was in Jr. High, and a .54 Hawkins rifle replica, neither has been fired in decades.
 
"They didn't use a patch and the ball had to be pounded down the bore with a mallet". Might have been a few like that but for the most part they loaded like we do today with a patch

Agree....I think that this idea stems from a misidenification of somebody clearing a stuck ball, or emergency use of the wrong ball in combat, centuries ago. The folks back then weren't silly, and especially with a stereotypical Germanic mind set for attention to details, deforming the manure out of a bullet will not give you the accuracy that you need if you're going to drop the coin back in the day, on a rifled piece. ;)

LD
 
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