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Shallow bore - won’t reach the touch hole

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I still think it would be easier to remove the barrel then remove the breech plug from the barrel. They are only screwed into the barrel. A stout vice and a decent sized wrench and it's off. If its an older gun then drown the threads with penetrating oil for a few days prior to removal. Then drill the plug as I mentioned previously.
 
Thanks for the response, Sid, but there’s no external breech plug - it’s been pounded/welded into the back if the barrel and ground off flat. Low-rent.

don
 
You will have to do some gunsmithing. XXX is how some English guns were done. XXXI is a Nock patent breech. The other is how some English guns were done. Can use a liner or simple vent with this. Its the best option. May also provide a velocity gain. Don't need to make a breech and its easier to clean than XXX. Yes its a threaded breech plug but drawing the threads with the computer was not worth the effort. I use a ball end mill to make the cup. But make sure the cup is centered with the bore. For a 45 use a 7/16. Put something in a cleaning rod jag that will mark the breech but wrap with tape to make sure its centered in the bore. The rod will need a ring of tape at the breech end and at the muzzle end. Then pull the breech and make sure its not FUBARed in the fit. If it is and its likely, you may have more work to do. Reinstall and/or fit the breech, drill the vent with the breech installed BUT NOT TOO DEEP. Just enough the go to about the center of the bore. Remove the breech and make the cup to the needed depth.
The photo shows how it looks inside the barrel. This is set up for a vent liner that does not protrude into the cup. This was in a rifle I rebarreled where the pan was a little below the center of the flat.
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Many old guns had flash channels that went at an angle forward to reach the charge. I have seen breech plugs with notches filed on an angle on the front of the breech face so the ignition could reach the charge. Those old gun kits came with instructions to drill a certain size hole for a touch hole and yes sometimes even said to drill at an angle. With some finesseing you can drill a hole partly straight in and then at an angle at the bottom of that hole. Even use a dremel to open up the path to the charge. You don't have much breech there, or I would suggest drilling a smaller than bore hole in the breech face (by drilling from the muzzle) and go back just enough so a 70 to 90 degree angle touch hole will intersect. Just a quarter inch drill and only enough so the touch hole would intersect, it would not have to be a 90 degree angle, you might get away with a 70 degree angle.
 
Many old guns had flash channels that went at an angle forward to reach the charge. I have seen breech plugs with notches filed on an angle on the front of the breech face so the ignition could reach the charge. Those old gun kits came with instructions to drill a certain size hole for a touch hole and yes sometimes even said to drill at an angle. With some finesseing you can drill a hole partly straight in and then at an angle at the bottom of that hole. Even use a dremel to open up the path to the charge. You don't have much breech there, or I would suggest drilling a smaller than bore hole in the breech face (by drilling from the muzzle) and go back just enough so a 70 to 90 degree angle touch hole will intersect. Just a quarter inch drill and only enough so the touch hole would intersect, it would not have to be a 90 degree angle, you might get away with a 70 degree angle.

There are a lot of cobbled together MLs out there. Both by makers that don't know any better and manufacturers that don't care and it carrys on to some extent to right now, ML shooters, are for the most part, notoriously cheap and would rather have cheap and shoddy over pricey and right far too often. I prefer not to cobble things that contain perhaps 10000 psi (more in rifles) that are close to my body parts.
The drawings and photos in my previous post will eliminate problems with fouling in the breech threads, poor ignition from convoluted/long vents and other undesirable things. Filing a notch in the breech face will result in fouling in the breech threads (at least in every gun I have ever disassembled that was done this way). Assemble it RIGHT and PROOF it properly. This is a cobbled breeching in the 50 cal rifle barrel by the big name ML BARREL MAKER. Is this not a wonderful fouling trap? The rebate entered the bore. The interior shot of the cleaned and reassembled breech shows you can SEE the threads. This level of crapsmanship is far more common that many of you know. I don't want things like this next to my face.
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thompson center had angled flash channels drilled at an angle from down in the nipple hole. I am glad you agree that they are manure.
 
thompson center had angled flash channels drilled at an angle from down in the nipple hole. I am glad you agree that they are manure.
Well actually the TCs WERE manure, and early on perhaps worse. They were made to be sold to people in Wal-Mart. Coil spring locks, who hoo. No understanding of WHY this was a bad idea in a percussion gun but they were cheap to make and needed no skill to assemble so they did not care so long as it would snap a cap and people would buy the guns. They called it a "Hawken" because that was all the rage at the time. Stocked like a modern bolt action so the masses would know it was a "real gun". They had a number of blow ups early on that they were able to skate on because of the "handloader defense" and in at least one case a faulty plaintiff's lawyer who failed to do due diligence. Then they rifled them for the maxi-ball (a nearly useless bullet for anything but shooting at paper targets or "gongs" and of course greatly increasing breech pressure, but the Wal-Mart gun buyer was told by the "shooting press" the RB was useless) with grooves so shallow they would strip with a cloth patched RB. But they could use button rifled barrels which were, yeah, lots cheaper. This gave the TRADITIONAL 48" twist which is near perfect for calibers to at least 54 with a RB, a bad name and nobody even makes them SFAIK other than special order. Wonderful. Yeah, I was heavily involved with MLs at the time the TC "events" were occurring, and had been for YEARS previous, I was writing for the old Buckskin Report magazine. The things that came through the editors mail were really scary and there were NUMEROUS failures due to their using barrels made of low quality steel. They were not the only ones who jumped on the then hot ML market and some of the stuff was REALLY bad. "Ultra-Hi" for example. TCs barrel failures stopped like shutting off a switch and apparently all the barrels with flaws had failed (we can hope) and they obviously switched barrel steels/suppliers. BTW you DO know there is a DIFFERENCE in flint and percussion ignition cycles RIGHT? That an angled flash channel in a PERCUSSION breech is a GOOD THING. While in a FL it just increases the distance from the priming powder to the main charge. Everyone wants to be an expert. But they often don't even understand the CONTEXT of the conversation or realize what they don't know. Of course, the CONTEXT of my remark on angled VENTS was FLINTLOCK, not percussion. NOTE: The percussion system has, if you don't know this yet, a HIGH PRESSURE ignition pulse. To the point that in England flint shotguns converted to percussion, which had passed a rigorous English proof when made, would sometimes suffer barrel bulges or failures. I think you will find this in George's "British Guns and Rifles". The ONLY explanation is the IGNITION pulse. Which with the early caps and other percussion systems could be pretty energetic if the caps , or what ever they used, had too much compound and were not vented as some pill locks and tube lock variations were. The first caps BTW were iron, meant to be reusable and were "reloaded" by the user or one of his servants perhaps in the "old country". AND at one time some British percussion guns, and perhaps those made in other places as well had VENTS drilled in the percussion breeches. This of course defeats the better water protection of the percussion system but I guess they had a reason.
 
Dphar1950, I don’t have information to argue for or against the safety of the early TCs. My first two muzzleloaders were CVA kits I put together in the middle 1970s. Talk about cheap and great sources of frustration. A flint rifle and flint pistol both in 45 they are long gone. Being a newlywed and starting a family they were all I could afford. As soon as I could afford it I bought a TC Hawken kit from a local gun shop. It was head and shoulders above the CVAs. It got me going in muzzleloaders and I still have it. Was it correct? No. And I knew it at the time but it was accurate and reliable.

There weren’t many other options available for a little more than $100 for the kit at the time.
 
So in the absence of any type of bolt head flats at the rear of the breech, there’s no way to tell if this breech block was threaded into the barrel, and no way to determine if it could be fired safely with a conservative charge. If this be true, i need to dispose of this barrel - i can’t sell or give away a pistol that i won’t shoot. This would hold true for a near-identical pistol i just acquired, in percussion.

As they say in Quebec, le bummere’.
 
Bolt head flats are not needed when the barrel is an octagon like your barrel seems to be.
With a special octagon wrench (similar to a normal hexagon wrench) the flats on the barrel will work fine to allow screwing a breech plug in and tightening it up.

Looking at the photos you provided in post #1, I think I can see a parting line between the breech plug and the barrel. There is no evidence of any brass or bronze filler on the barrel so I would say, the assembly is screwed together. Then again, it's possible that is just a scratch I'm seeing. Read on:

Can you take a picture of the rear of the barrel while it is removed from the stock? That would allow us to see what is really going on.

I notice there is a tang on the rear of the barrel. On all of the barrels I've worked with that had a tang on them, the tang and the hunk of material below it that is sticking out the rear of the barrel is what is used to screw the breech plug into the barrel.
If there is material under the tang that is sticking out of the back of the barrel, that is what was used to screw in the breech plug and your gun barrel is totally safe to finish and to shoot.
 
Dphar1950, I don’t have information to argue for or against the safety of the early TCs. My first two muzzleloaders were CVA kits I put together in the middle 1970s. Talk about cheap and great sources of frustration. A flint rifle and flint pistol both in 45 they are long gone. Being a newlywed and starting a family they were all I could afford. As soon as I could afford it I bought a TC Hawken kit from a local gun shop. It was head and shoulders above the CVAs. It got me going in muzzleloaders and I still have it. Was it correct? No. And I knew it at the time but it was accurate and reliable.

There weren’t many other options available for a little more than $100 for the kit at the time.
And I understand this. But I get a little put out at times when people start giving me manure about something they obviously know nothing about or perhaps just enough to be dangerous. Or don't even understand the CONTEXT. The problem with poorly designed locks and/or breeches for example is excess gas escape and flying cap and/or fouling fragments striking the shooters face. Nipples blowing out (Belgian made DGW "Squirrel Rifle"), a modern, brittle, free machining steel drum breaking off flush with the barrel, another shooter told me he had the same thing happen. I have had all this happen in the 1960s. A friend of mine had a permanent "tattoo" of powder fragments on his nose when a nipple blew out of the late percussion design breech that had an INTERIOR powder/flash channel design that put too much pressure on the nipple. The fragments struck with enough force to penetrate the skin. He was lucky he did not get his eye "tattooed". The problem is most people have no idea of the dangers associated with weak mainsprings that let the hammer rise easily under pressure, breeches with sloppy nipple threads, nipples set too high in the breech and shallow cups in percussion hammer noses. I have seen reproductions made by Miroku (who certainly should have known better) in Japan in the 1970s with TWO PIECE barrels that the bores in the threaded together pieces did not line up. Another "Ultra Hi with a drum that would fall out of the barrel if turned 1/4-1/2 turn. The gunsmith was trying to get the load out and see why it, thank goodness, failed to fire. And I have documentation, with photos of much of this like the 2 piece barrel in the "Ultra-Hi" in old copies of the Buckskin Report.
 
So in the absence of any type of bolt head flats at the rear of the breech, there’s no way to tell if this breech block was threaded into the barrel, ...

There's at least one way, and likely more I'm not aware of. Have the bbl examined by x-ray. Depending upon your access to such equipment, it may be cheaper to buy a well-made barrel.
 
Gentlemen, thank you for your replies. I’m away from my shop right now but by the weekend i should have photos posted of both Colonial pistol breeches, the flint model in post #1 and the percussion model i just bought.

don
 
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Good evening all. Finally home from travels to family to help out with the stuff of life, estates and whatnot. Back to smoke...

Attached is a photo of the breech of this pistol, just a ground off circle suggesting a breech block, threaded? The second photo is the touch hole area. The ink mark on the left was a reference to the center of the pan. The mark on the right is the rear wall of the bore.

The current plan is to dremel out the pan, elongating it toward the muzzle just a bit to allow drill ing the touch hole at the 1/8” mark on the ruler. At that point i’ll drill a 3/8” centered rearward extension of the bore, just past seeing daylight through the touch hole.

Now i need to figure out where to post a message re a flint longrifle i just bought with a bad lock.....
 
View attachment 23756 View attachment 23757 View attachment 23758 Good evening all. Finally home from travels to family to help out with the stuff of life, estates and whatnot. Back to smoke...

Attached is a photo of the breech of this pistol, just a ground off circle suggesting a breech block, threaded? The second photo is the touch hole area. The ink mark on the left was a reference to the center of the pan. The mark on the right is the rear wall of the bore.

The current plan is to dremel out the pan, elongating it toward the muzzle just a bit to allow drill ing the touch hole at the 1/8” mark on the ruler. At that point i’ll drill a 3/8” centered rearward extension of the bore, just past seeing daylight through the touch hole.

Now i need to figure out where to post a message re a flint longrifle i just bought with a bad lock.....

Looks like you can drill into the breach plug safely. Just take it that distance to a hair past the drill point just big enough for powder to get in it. Then straight across with the vent hole.
 
Good morning guys!
From the picture above posted by Centurian yesterday, you can see the joint line of the breech plug & tang.
You can drill the touch liner slightly to the right of the pan, just into breech plug, just enough to leave a witness mark on the breech plug threads, then remove the breech plug.
Hold your barrel in a heavy vise ( smooth jaws, preferably a milling vise, then grasping the very back part of the breech plug with a large heavy adjustable wrench unscrew the breech plug.
You can then drill the touch hole into the breech plug, and then a hole into the breech face to the touch hole.
Easy peasy!
I would heat the breech plug and barrel with a propane torch or heat gun and pour in some quality penetrating oil down the barrel. I would leave this set for at least an hour.
Heat the barrel again, try to keep the breech plug cool as possible. Secure it in the vise, then unscrew the breech plug.
It will come out "IF" the breech plug was not half assed welded in place. If it was the barrel was not safe any way.
Good penetrating oil is 50/50 ATF transmission oil and acetone. There are other good oils as well Liquid Wrench, Release etc.
Dphar1950 is quite correct on the many poor gun barrel combinations that were sold to the public in years passed.
Not long ago I had a "Pedersoli " Kentucky pistol that had the percussion drum sticking into the bore a full 3/16" with a good 3/8" space to the breech plug. The threaded portion of the drum was at least 5/8" long.
The gun was safe enough, but impossible to clean properly, and all kinds of space for crud, and corrosive build up to occur.
Enough of my rant!
Fred
 
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