Best method of working up a load

Once I have a decent load, I tend to adjust my sights based on the bench shooting, especially if they are off to the right or left. I've learned to be a little more patient about elevation with fixed sights, especially primitive sights. Once you file down the sight it isn't so easy to put it back.

Then when shooting off hand if a pattern shows a need to adjust again I can do that. I try to be careful to not make an adjustment based on only a few shots that may be a pattern, but a due to bad form, followthrough, sight picture, canting etc.

Lately the way I have been shooting, I am probably just better off using the setting from the bench.

Correct on every assumption.
By zeroing off the bench, you remove as many variables as possible.
Free stand shooting every shot has different sets of variables at work.
But that's stage 2, get it right off the bench first.

Ben Meyer said:

I've found with both of my rifles(both .50 cal, one a Hawken percussion w/1:48 twist, the other a flintlock TN Mtn rifle w/1:56 twist) 80gr of 2f shoots best. One likes Goex, the other likes Swiss. The flintlock shoots the same though with 70gr of 3f or 80gr of 2f Swiss. Using 2f, I went down as low as 60gr and up as high as 100gr. Above 80gr, the groups started opening up. So I got the powder part done.

There are so many variables to change with patch and lube. I've played with some different lubes and found the Dutch method Ballistol and water dry lubed patches are as accurate as anything else. Mr Flintlocks is accurate too. As long as I can swab between shots, I use dry lubed. If I cant/dont wanna, I use Mr Flintlocks.

Patch THICKNESS is the one thing I havent really experimented with. I have a ton of high quality pillow ticking that I "think" is .018 thick.

My method is: eliminate variables by bench rest shooting, and change one thing at a time.

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I have NO experience with Swiss powder as it wasn't available when I was still shooting, I understand it is a bit peppier than Goes.
Your 80 grains of whatever for your .50 calibers bears out my old timers rule of a grain and a half for each caliber plus maybe 5 more grains. exactly.
If pillow ticking works for you HooRay! If you cheat and sneak over to the denim fabrics you should find a much wider selection of thicknesses.
If you are getting OK groups with a fabric you can fine tune your patch thickness by inserting a sheet of thin paper between ball and cloth patch to se if that makes positive difference. Then try it with two sheets etc. If you find, for instance that there is a real improvement when you used 3 sheets of paper take a measurement with your non existent micrometer to get a compressed measurement of your cloth patch plus the 3 sheets of paper and go look for a fabric that compresses as close as possible the same amount.
This is why I try to get folks to get a micrometer.
You speak of all the variables, a micrometer helps you eliminate the patch thickness variable and that's the mose important one to nail.
When you find it, go back to the fabric shop and buy 9 yards of that cloth and you never have to thin bout shooting patches again.
The one difference between Mr. Flintlock and Mrs Percussion is the two barrels. Look for my thread on Tolerances and you might see why the tw barrels are slightly different You may end up with a slightly different patch material for each rifle. If so. make sure the two fabrics are different looking soy can tell them apart.
Your pillow ticking is NOT .018 thick when it gets crushed between ball and bore.
Dutch Schoultz

Griz44Mag said:

Correct on every assumption.
By zeroing off the bench, you remove as many variables as possible.
Free stand shooting every shot has different sets of variables at work.
But that's stage 2, get it right off the bench first.

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Grizz,
The problem is all previous experience is with cartridge rifles that, out of the box, they shoot about as well as they will ever shoot. A muzzleloader is NOT AT ALL like that. You have to fuss with the variables till It is hitting where you aim.
I had trouble coaching trying to make that point. "I'm going hunting with this rife andI don't expect to get a deer shooting off a bench"
And they would continue spraying the target until as a fluke they would get one at the center of the target they would close up shop and go out in the field shooting a wide group and more likely than not WOUNDING a deer rather than getting a quick clean kill.
Patrience

Dutch

Yess , move the rear sight the way you want the group to move,
and move the front sight the opposite way you want the group to move ..

Thx Dutch. I CAN say that my pillow ticking(made by Santee Print Works in SC) of which I have YARDS of, is pretty tight to load a ball with. I need to give my short starter a good smack. I called the company, they couldn't tell me the thickness, just the thread count, weight, that its 100% cotton, etc. A commenter said he measured it at .020. I bought a pack of prelubed(Wonderlube) .015 ticking patches that DO load a "little" easier, but not so much so as to let me think what I got is considerably thicker like .020.

What kind of micrometer do you recommend getting? I dont even know what a micrometer looks like. Is it a digital caliper type tool?

If you have a Harbor Freight near you, you can buy one of their mechanically digital readout one inch micrometers for less than $20. Look for discount coupons in most magazines and online. Since you will be using g the same micrometer the measurements will be repeatable. My Harbor Freight micrometer gives me nearly the same measurement as my old Starrett machinest"s micrometer. The best part of the Harbor Freight micrometer is that there are no inscribed lines for my old eyes to read and you can apply a fair bit of compression to get a reading with little concern about harming precision threads.

Thx, I'll pick one up!

Ben Meyer said:

I've been wondering about sight adjustment. I'm still not 100% done with working up "the" load for my gun, but last range session, I was shooting touching cloverleaf groups off the bench. But they were a little low and a little left. I plan on shooting it more at 50yds from the bench, then shooting again with KNOWN different thicknesses of patches to make sure I got "the" load. Once I feel I do, if I'm still a little low and left from the bench, I'll need to tweak the sights. I'm assuming I'll need to tap the rear sight RIGHT, to move the left leaning group right. Is that correct? And I'll need to file the front sight DOWN to raise the group UP. Is this also correct?

But why not do that from the bench? Obviously, I'll be shooting and hunting with the gun either offhand or with a tree/treestand rail as a rest. I.e., NOT from a bench. But, wouldn't adjusting sights from the bench, taking out all the micro flinches and breathing movements etc. out of the equation before accurate? If it shoots PEEFECTLY from a bench, but not perfectly offhand, wouldn't that tell me the difference is due to ME, my form, my eye, and not the gun? The "me" part can be approved upon via practice, right?

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Ben,

Those are great questions.

Most people don't position their cheek position or "spot weld" in exactly the same position when going from Offhand to kneeling, sitting or prone. That means their shooting eye is not in the same position for each position and that means you are not aiming exactly the same way in each position. You many not notice the difference at very short ranges like 25 yards, but at longer ranges like 100 yards or more, it will almost definitely show up. How much it shows up between 25 yards and 100 yards is up to each individual shooter.

OK as far as moving the front or rear sights for windage. I spent much of my 26 year career in the Corps on NM Rifle or Pistol Ranges and having to move sights for windage for shooters. Trust me, when one gets to such a high level of competition as on THE Marine Corps Rifle or Pistol Team, an Armorer had better not make a mistake when moving or filing front sights.

I found the easiest way of remembering which way to move sights for windage was this saying that was old a long time before I joined THE Marine Corps Rifle Team for the first time as an Armorer in 1975. "To properly move the sights for windage, "Move the Front Sight into the Group and the Rear Sight into the Center of the Bullseye" or "in the direction you want the group to move," depending on your preference of the saying for the Rear Sight. IOW for the front sight and say the group is to the RIGHT of the center of the bullseye, you have to move the sight "Into the Group" or to the RIGHT. (Do the opposite if the group is to the LEFT of center of the bullseye.)

To move the Rear Sight Properly and the group is to the RIGHT of the center of the bullseye, you move the Rear Sight in the direction you want the group to move, so you move the Rear Sight to the LEFT. (Do the opposite if the group is to the LEFT of center of the bullseye.)

I have an amusing story on moving Rear Sights properly for windage, but since it had to do with modern pistols, I don't think I should add it here.

Gus

BIGBEAR said:

Yess , move the rear sight the way you want the group to move,
and move the front sight the opposite way you want the group to move ..

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THIS FOR SOME REASON IS A DIFFICULT POINT TO MAKE.Even I, brilliant person that I am, had to make a model on paper to make it sink in. If asked today there is that stupid pause while I have stop and remember that model I made back in the '70's.
Dutch Schoultz

Artificer said:

Ben,

Those are great questions.

Most people don't position their cheek position or "spot weld" in exactly the same position when going from Offhand to kneeling, sitting or prone. That means their shooting eye is not in the same position for each position and that means you are not aiming exactly the same way in each position. You many not notice the difference at very short ranges like 25 yards, but at longer ranges like 100 yards or more, it will almost definitely show up. How much it shows up between 25 yards and 100 yards is up to each individual shooter.

OK as far as moving the front or rear sights for windage. I spent much of my 26 year career in the Corps on NM Rifle or Pistol Ranges and having to move sights for windage for shooters. Trust me, when one gets to such a high level of competition as on THE Marine Corps Rifle or Pistol Team, an Armorer had better not make a mistake when moving or filing front sights.

I found the easiest way of remembering which way to move sights for windage was this saying that was old a long time before I joined THE Marine Corps Rifle Team for the first time as an Armorer in 1975. "To properly move the sights for windage, "Move the Front Sight into the Group and the Rear Sight into the Center of the Bullseye" or "in the direction you want the group to move," depending on your preference of the saying for the Rear Sight. IOW for the front sight and say the group is to the RIGHT of the center of the bullseye, you have to move the sight "Into the Group" or to the RIGHT. (Do the opposite if the group is to the LEFT of center of the bullseye.)

To move the Rear Sight Properly and the group is to the RIGHT of the center of the bullseye, you move the Rear Sight in the direction you want the group to move, so you move the Rear Sight to the LEFT. (Do the opposite if the group is to the LEFT of center of the bullseye.)

I have an amusing story on moving Rear Sights properly for windage, but since it had to do with modern pistols, I don't think I should add it here.

Gus

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I think, just a guess perhaps, that going back and forth between Muzzleloaders and the other method designed for the lazy can cause a slowness in developing accuracy with the muzzleloaders. Just a thought. I do know that trying to work up a winning load on several MLs at the same time will have swearing in Hungarian long before you succeed in getting all tuned up. Do one rifle at a time, write down your recipe for that specific rifle. Then start from scratch on the next rife and so forth. It gets easier as you move on from rifle to rifle.
Dutch Schoultz

Dr5x said:

I think, just a guess perhaps, that going back and forth between Muzzleloaders and the other method designed for the lazy can cause a slowness in developing accuracy with the muzzleloaders. Just a thought. I do know that trying to work up a winning load on several MLs at the same time will have swearing in Hungarian long before you succeed in getting all tuned up. Do one rifle at a time, write down your recipe for that specific rifle. Then start from scratch on the next rife and so forth. It gets easier as you move on from rifle to rifle.
Dutch Schoultz

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Dutch,

My Original Mentor in Muzzleloading and Best Friend in Life was not quite 10 years older than I, when I first met him in 1973. We met while going through the OJT or Apprenticeship Program for RTE or NM Gunsmithing. He was a dedicated flintlock shooter even then and we got along famously as we were the only ones interested in ML guns. He joined THE Marine Corps Rifle Team a few months before I did. After I joined the Big Team, the subject of wanting to improve Offhand Shooting came up. He said if they REALLY wanted to improve Offhand shooting, they should get flintlocks for the Team and do some practicing with them. Of course I knew what he meant, but no one else really took him seriously.

A few months later after one of the better shooters from the Big Team had been competing in the monthly muzzleloading matches we sponsored and though the shooter shot an original Percussion Rifle instead of a Flintlock, he came up to us and told us he now realized my friend's suggestion had been spot on.

There are things Muzzleloaders can learn from Modern Shooters and Vice Versa, though anyone well grounded in the basics of shooting can shoot either type well.

Gus