• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades

Differences in designs, questions.

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

N.Y. Yankee

32 Cal.
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
602
Reaction score
674
There are probably many threads about this but what are the main differences between the Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Virginia and other styles of rifles? How do you tell on first sight?
 
Well you really can't get an answer on a forum, even this one, that will necessarily fit the computer screen....

For the state designations are really based on the geographic location of the "school" to which folks will assign the shape of the stock plus the hardware used on the rifle.

AND..., "school" refers to a particular style using the components mentioned in the previous sentence, which folks think corresponds to one or more builders of that sort of rifle.

So this is how it was explained to me...,
Lets say Mr. Jones builds several very nice longrifles in Lancaster PA from 1760 to 17770. We will say three of them, and signs his name to them. They have some distinctive traits, such as all having the same lock style and size, and all having the same patchbox, and...Jones "signs" his name on them by engraving his name on the barrels. BUT..., there are actually seven more very similar looking rifles, without the Jones name on them, and they are not nearly as identical as the ones actually signed by Jones. So,...rifle historians will call all ten of those rifles "the Jones school" of Pennsylvania Rifle building. Perhaps Jones did all ten or perhaps he did five, and had an apprentice to the other five...who knows?

For me, a "Kentucky" rifle is really a "Pennsylvania" or a "Lancaster" rifle that folks apply the word "Kentucky" because either they mislabel it..., OR it was made for folks journeying over the mountains into the Ohio Valley (i.e.Kentucky) to settle. Take a Pennsylvania rifle and be just about as fancy in the wood working, but use iron (steel) hardware and you may have a Virginia Rifle. Use even less embellishment, and less steel hardware, and you have a Southern Rifle. (Among the Southern Rifle tradition is also the very distinctive Tennessee Rifle style). IF you have a very basic shaped stock and sparse brass hardware, and no patch box, you may have the mythical Pennsylvania "Schimmel" rifle. ("Mythical" as I think there is a reference to such rifles in records or oral traditions, but I don't think any actual examples have survived.)

There are whole books, LARGE books, on the different "schools" and styles of longrifles. Don't ask me, even though I live in Maryland, what makes an Armstrong rifle a "Maryland" rifle, other than it's probably distinctive enough to spot, and Armstrong built his rifles below the Mason Dixon Line.

THEN you have "smooth rifles" which are guns made to outwardly resemble rifles (instead of tradeguns/fusils/fowlers) but they have a smooth bore like a shotgun..., which folks use to think for many decades was because they once were rifles, but over time the rifling wore out and the owner could only afford to have the barrel reamed out. NOW there is evidence, I've heard, that indicates that many of these were made from day one to be smooth bore....

Leman and Derringer made full stocked "trade" rifles at different times in the past. Both were from Pennsylvania, and I think Derringer (who became famous for his tiny pistols) made his in Philadelphia...so are they trade rifles, or Pennsylvania rifles, and are Derringer's rifles Philadelphia Rifles? Do all three names apply?

(iirc) Henry Morgan for his trading post in Kaskaskia (which would be one day inside the borders of the State of Illinois) ordered "Lancaster" rifles from his partners in Philadelphia. So were they made in Lancaster? Were they even made in Pennsylvania? Were they made in England are were simply labeled like appearance (just like 80 years later when England flooded the U.S. with "Bowie" knives.)

So it's a very complicated subject.....

LD
 
Last edited:
To tell the difference, you need to start looking at details of particular features, particularly architecture, but also other things, like lock style, sideplate style, TG, BP, inlays, carving, engraving, etc. There's a LOT to look at. For example; A Virginia rifle for instance often has a wrist that is narrower at the nose of the comb than at the top nearer the breech. Some call that a "pinched wrist". Whereas, that feature will not be visible on a (properly built) Lancaster styled gun.

Just start looking at individual features pf a bunch of different guns and comparing those features side-by-side for a while and you will start to develop a feel for it.

Just beware of falling in to the trap of assigning a "right and wrong" to a particular school for a particular (original) gun. For instance, in Lehigh County there were 150 or so active makers of guns. Not all of them built guns with the double-radius wrist that Moll and Rupp used, yet they are all considered legitimate Lehigh / Bethlehem / Allentown school guns, The guys making guns 200-250 years ago were as varied then as they are today, maybe more, since their wi-fi wasn't as reliable as ours is.
 
Last edited:
If you really really REALLY want to learn more about the various "schools" of builders get Rifles of Colonial America volumes 1 & 2. When you see the price of them you will decide how much you REALLY want to know. :)
 
As stated above there are a number of points of interest that will clue one in on the "style" of the rifle. Some are almost dead giveaways. But often there are slight architectural variations among rifles from the same builder. Styles evolve but a few particulars commonly point to a specific location if not a specific builder.
 
There are probably many threads about this but what are the main differences between the Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Virginia and other styles of rifles? How do you tell on first sight?
Most of the long rifles that are called Kentucky were built in Pennsylvania. The term "Kentucky rifle" became popular following the war of 1812 when a song was written by Samuel Woodworth about Andrew Jacksons win over the British in New Orleans.
In several places in the song reference is made to the Boys from Kentucky and their Kentucky rifles.
Andrew Jackson's backers even used the song to help popularize Jackson in his bid for the Presidency.
Before that and even after that the rifles were more commonly referred to just as "Long Rifles".

As for the "schools" of the Pennsylvania rifles, the gunsmiths often copied the general shape of the stocks in the county they lived in and these shapes were often quite different. The differences are most apparent in the shape of the comb and the underside of the butt.
For instance the Lancaster county stocks often had a rather straight comb, similar to many modern rifle stocks.
Fordbut.jpg


The Reading county stocks often had a curved comb, sometimes referred to as a "Roman Nose" shape to it.

Reading.jpg


The Bedford county rifles were very slender, The "drop" to the comb was large leading some to say they looked like hockey sticks.
Bedfordbutt.jpg


The main difference between the "Virginia" longrifles and the Pennsylvania longrifles is the Pennsylvania rifles almost always used brass for their furneture (trigger guard, butt plate, side plate, patchbox cover) while the Virginia rifles often replaced this material with iron.

As was said earlier, there are whole books written about the subject, sometimes available at local libraries. If your area has a good library, you might stop by and see what they have.
 
All this started with a bad misunderstanding. In eighteenth and nineteenth century names were assigned to military units based on use on the field or equipment.
Heavy horse or light horse, didn’t have anything to do with the weight of the horse, but how it was used in war. Then at times cavalry had to serve as the opposite of their name.
Most men used muskets in the military. Regiments that had Rifles were called Rifles. In America most regiments came from a state and were called New Jersey X or South Carolina X.
Jackson raised a regiment to resist the Brits in Louisiana.
Men with their own rifles. They were from Kentucky and were the Kentucky Rifles.
Most of their rifles were lost in the Mississippi, but after the battle of New Orleans they were celebrated in a broadside having won the battle with their Kentucky Rifles.
There were plenty of rifle makers in Kentucky but most folks got their rifles out of Pennsylvania Maryland or Virginia.
Local rifle makers made guns from materials at hand. Lots of iron in the south and some silver led to a lot iron and a few silver mounted guns.
The north used more brass and some silver and even a bit of gold wire.
Different stock designs became popular in different areas. But we were a nation of moves so an old boy could buy a rifle in North Carolina move to Tennessee then Texas, or north to Kentucky then in to Illinois. He carried the same rifle.
Derringer or the Brothers Hawken made plain strong rifles for the western trade, but also fine fancy rifles for local trade.
Time goes by, frontier tools became collectors items. And collectors tried to ID types and hammer them in to schools.
Back then they were just rifles, or American rifles, they might be plain or might be fine, but were just rifles.
Our names are largely make believe. Best we can say is guns made in certain areas at certain time by certain makers tended to have certain features that could change in five or ten years even by the same maker.
 
I love all this information and I hope you keep adding to it. I have found if you are talking to someone one that has limited or no knowledge with long rifles it is just easier to say you are making a "Kentucky" rifle unless you have time for a long conversation. If you say "Pennsylvania Long Rifle" you may just get a lost in the hills stare.
 
I use the term "American Long Rifle" when describing what it is that I am building, which is accurate. I try to keep the detailing after that to a sentence or two.

When they look at a build of mine, they always seem to ask about the engraving (though they usually call it etching--for the life of me I can't figure out why though). My engraving is no great shakes, but my carving is pretty good. That seldom gets much of a comment, other than asking if I glued on the raised figures.
 
You need to go to a good ML event and see the differences for yourself... even still their are many overlapping similarities.
They all used imported locks as the UK was farther along than our young country, until the percussion era. The east coast (Pennsylvania) was certainly more established than any other part understandably. No doubt the Longrifle started in PA - imo.
School is a relatively new term, I think it came about in scrimpers book in the 1970’s. Before then is was by county, before then state.
Good luck in your learnings - there’s a lot out there.
 
Hi,
No one can answer your question within the confines of a thread. You need to look at originals and read some books. Kindig's "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age" is a place to start. Shumway's "Rifles in Colonial America" Vols 1 & 2 is another good choice. Perhaps even better and readily available at reasonable cost are the Kentucky Rifle Foundation CDs covering many regional styles. There simply is no simple formula that can describe the many schools and styles because to a large extent styling was dependent on the individual gunsmith.

dave
 
Thanks a bunch guys! I've learned a lot about it already. Never realized there was so much to it. I have an ALR style rifle but have always kinda focused on the Hawken so I know a bit more about them.
 
Below is a link to a historical blog site on Pennsylvania longrifle "schools" and the approximate dates. It's a very simplified explanation but a good introduction to the various styles and their eras.

http://www.cherrytreefamily.com/parifleschools.htm

As mentioned earlier Kentucky is where they were used and Pennsylvania is where they were made - though that is also an oversimplification. Good iron and brass parts stayed in use and there was no doubt a lot of local work and rework. There were period Ohio and New York smiths who made it into the percussion era as well.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top