Peep/tang sights place in history???

As my vision worsens, I've been tempted to use peep or tang sights on some of my rifles.

I'm looking for some knowledge regarding their use in the old days.

Did the "Old Boys" use such sights on their original guns?

Interested not only in the percussions back in "the day", but, also flintlocks.

Thanks very much for any insight you may pass along.

Best regards, Skychief.

I asked this same question this past summer, and original peeps were seen on weapons as early as Matchlocks.

1700s era Flintlock rifles also are seen with period peeps , more so on barrel mounted sights.

Tang Sights didn't seem to come about until the 1850's? As far as being in popular use on stuff like Whitworth rifles etc.

The first peep I've seen on a line issue military weapon was the 1863 Springfield, which had a peep on the rear sight leaf. A trend which continued through into the 1903 Springfield ( peep sight on rear sight leaf) after which peeps became the norm as the only and primary iron sight for military weapons. Not to go into "unmentionables " but just to fill out the long military history of peep sights on Infantry rifles.

Crossbows had peepsights in the 1400’s.

I have traditional style peep sights on 2 flintlocks and one percussion. The sight is from muzzleloader builders supply. It is called a Johnson peep

Skychief said:

Did the "Old Boys" use such sights on their original guns?

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Skychief, I saved this picture of a flintlock rifle with a flip-up peep sight which was posted to the forum by Claude Mathis, said to be from 1670. It was on a gun in the collection of W. Keith Neal, the authority on antique guns. Sorry, I have no more info on it, maybe Claude....?



Spence

Hello Spence and thank you for the reply and photograph!

GREAT to see you here.

I find it interesting that peeps seemed to be used so rarely during the "flintlock era". As it's been established that they were used to some extent, even as early as when crossbows were in fashion, original flintlocks (to my knowledge) are rarely seen outfitted with them.

I'm sure the Old Boys had their vision troubles too. Seems an easy solution to a common problem, then and now.

Happily, I can report that a whitetail makes a fine target for me to this day, but, I took a squirrel rifle to the woods a few days ago. I could see the sights, but the squirrels in front of me simply disappeared. The word "poof" comes to mind!

With any luck in the future, cataract surgery may help a great deal!

Thank you again my friend.

Thank you to all for the replies!

Best regards, Skychief.

Sky, if we are to judge the usage of peep sights or, let's say, short starters, by how rarely original flintlocks are seen outfitted with them then we are bound to misjudge the facts. Perhaps by a wide margin. I prescribe to the "used up" school of thought. Meaning well used guns were stripped of any remaining useful parts after the life of the weapon was realized to repair or rebuild another gun. A particular rifle would effectively cease to exist, offering no opportunity to be found in a attic, or closet to have it's peep sight counted.
Since I started in BP in '76 I have hunted my rifles hard just as most of the originals were also used. During a long wet season I've often wondered how the old
hunters managed to keep their rifles in a shootable condition for the duration. They didn't have the sources to choose the best lubricants or practice'es to keep an old rifle from getting rusted up and junked. And probably many more than we realize were discarded.
I personally think a lot more rifles had peep sights than we realize and I feel entirely comfortable in using them on my rifles. Of course this only conjecture as I have no way of proving anything.
Ron

Skychief said:

As my vision worsens, I've been tempted to use peep or tang sights on some of my rifles.

I'm looking for some knowledge regarding their use in the old days.

Did the "Old Boys" use such sights on their original guns?

Interested not only in the percussions back in "the day", but, also flintlocks.

Thanks very much for any insight you may pass along.

Best regards, Skychief.

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My disclaimer up front; I'm no kind of expert on this subject!
When this question comes up there are always a couple of examples put forward of arms of the 18th or 19th centuries (and before) that have or had some type of aperture sight. Of course those examples would be the few, not the many.
But, I think that one thing we tend to overlook when this question comes up is life expectancy. As we discuss this here today the age of most of us really interested in this topic is probably north of (avert your eyes if you don't want to see this) sixty! We have lived long enough to "need" an aperture sight.
I believe that the life expectancy in 1787 America was 38; and thus, the "need" for an aperture sight would have been extremely limited.
One example of period arms that did have aperture sights can be found in the Nov. 1988 Muzzle Blasts magazine in an article about Kentucky gunsmith Benjamin Mills who was making rifles with aperture (globe) sights in 1841 and who sold guns to Kit Carson in 1842. Those rifles were reported to have been used during the Fremont Expedition

I think DNB hit the nail on the head.... There wasn't that many old eyes around back in the day.

One other reason is a lot of older guns were repurposed during war time after the flintlock era...

Very interesting thoughts guys. Much appreciated.

dragnetbill said:

My disclaimer up front; I'm no kind of expert on this subject!
When this question comes up there are always a couple of examples put forward of arms of the 18th or 19th centuries (and before) that have or had some type of aperture sight. Of course those examples would be the few, not the many.
But, I think that one thing we tend to overlook when this question comes up is life expectancy. As we discuss this here today the age of most of us really interested in this topic is probably north of (avert your eyes if you don't want to see this) sixty! We have lived long enough to "need" an aperture sight.
I believe that the life expectancy in 1787 America was 38; and thus, the "need" for an aperture sight would have been extremely limited.
One example of period arms that did have aperture sights can be found in the Nov. 1988 Muzzle Blasts magazine in an article about Kentucky gunsmith Benjamin Mills who was making rifles with aperture (globe) sights in 1841 and who sold guns to Kit Carson in 1842. Those rifles were reported to have been used during the Fremont Expedition

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Actually, a large reason for the low life expectancy of the era (it was even worse in Europe) was the very high infant mortality rate of the time. If a male child made it to 30, the odds were he would make it to 60. The odds didn't improve much until the 20th century. But back to the topic at hand, since peeps were a known feature and do improve accuracy (even for younger eyes), it is a wonder to me why more weren't placed on rifles.

I'll speculate on another factor. Large families. If one was a farmer and much larger percentage farmed than today, the tendency was to have a large family due to two reasons, lack of birth control and the need for labor. If I was a farmer, by the time I reached 60, I may have two or three or more adult sons to help on the farm. I we had a gun or two to protect or hunt, it probably fell to the younger adults with better eyes to do the shooting.

The only verified "period" attempt to help older eyes was the fact that the P53 Enfield rear sight was set farther forward on the barrel , due to older Colonial troops like Sepoys serving as Privates for 30+ years and also it wasn't uncommon to have guys in their 40s in the Enlisted ranks in the 1850's-60's.

I wonder how much of a factor "weak eyes" was for the run of the mill enlisted ranks. I was near sighted from about the age of 6 on and always wore glasses or contacts until I had cataract surgery and had my eyes fixed. As a young adult I would have been a very poor shot without glasses. With glasses, many prairie dogs, rabbits, squirrels, etc. went to the great beyond.

Skychief said:

As my vision worsens, I've been tempted to use peep or tang sights on some of my rifles.... Interested not only in the percussions back in "the day", but, also flintlocks.

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This seems to meet your requirements....

A flintlock target rifle by R. Fenton, London, c1810



David

Stantheman86 said:

Tang Sights didn't seem to come about until the 1850's? As far as being in popular use on stuff like Whitworth rifles etc....

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Insofar as the UK and Whitworth rifles etc, more likely early 1860s. There wasn’t a significant market until the formation of the Rifle Volunteers in 1859 and the subsequent formation of the NRA(UK) that year. Up until then, Whitworth was focussed in the military market. The first NRA Annual Rifle meeting kindled an interest in rifle shooting and the All-Comers events were open to ‘Any Rifle’, whereas those of the Volunteers were very much military in character using open sights.

David

Stantheman86 said:

The only verified "period" attempt to help older eyes was the fact that the P53 Enfield rear sight was set farther forward on the barrel.........

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The rearsight on the P.53 Enfield is set back quite close to the lock, and insofar as I am aware was unchanged on all models of the rifle. The rearsight on the various Short Rifles however is set further forward and close to the first barrel band.

David

Kansas Jake said:

I wonder how much of a factor "weak eyes" was for the run of the mill enlisted ranks. I was near sighted from about the age of 6 on and always wore glasses or contacts until I had cataract surgery and had my eyes fixed. As a young adult I would have been a very poor shot without glasses. With glasses, many prairie dogs, rabbits, squirrels, etc. went to the great beyond.

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I think that was a reason for smooth rifles. Near sighted you can still hit a tree rat or thumper with a hail of shot, do in a brown deer shaped blob at fifty yards and fire at a long red blob a hundred yards away.
Off hand I don’t recall the name of the guy that shot Lewis who was described as ‘ not seeing very well’ yet was a ‘hunter’.

George said:

Skychief, I saved this picture of a flintlock rifle with a flip-up peep sight which was posted to the forum by Claude Mathis, said to be from 1670. It was on a gun in the collection of W. Keith Neal, the authority on antique guns. Sorry, I have no more info on it, maybe Claude....?

View attachment 21849

Spence

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Spence are you the maker of the long Spence peep sight. I have 2 and need a couple more