Revolver chain fires

Enfield58 said:

First of all, you must be one of those keyboard-cowboys who communicates differently with people over a forum than if you were face-to-face with them.

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Actually, I am an ugly old man (if you doubt the truthfulness of that, look at my picture. That ugly thing really is me.) that speaks its mind, whether face to face or on a forum.
Truth to tell, I quit caring what "people" (note quotes) think of me over 60 year ago.

I've found over the years that many otherwise intelligent people believe old wives tales they read on the internet ("so it must be true...") that logic and that (now rare commodity "common sense", which appears to be either critically endangered, or extinct these days.) says is B.S.

You cannot deny there have been and are a lot of "people" (note quotes) that do not know how to think for themselves over the last 40 plus years.
"Schools" (note quotes) have trained kids not to think for themselves, or to ask questions for too many years.

Like I said, if you use the proper size ball when loading your revolver, you shave a ring of lead off the ball. These is no gap for the spark or heat to reach the powder.
If you put lube over the chamber mouth, it is melted away on every chamber mouth, on the first shot, leaving nothing over the remaining chamber mouths.

As for shooting C&B revolvers for another 30 or 40 years … Not going to happen.
I doubt I have more than 10 or 15 years (if that) left on top of this rock.
I don't have any reason to believe I will reach my 80's, 90's, or 100's alive.

Hello All,

This is a topic which I think is really a serious issue. Personally I believe the "Chain Fire" comes from either a weak chamber, or from the front of the cylinder. I don't believe an over powder wad, or even packing grease over the projectile will stop a true chain fire.
I urge you all to read the following link, then make up your own mind.
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html
I must admit I held back on this issue, As some people can get pretty crazy.
We've discussed this on the "1858" & "Colt Country" forums.
We even have a chain fire log going, lots of theories. When a chain fire is reported, the shooter gets quizzed. I believe the last chain fire never set off the cap on the chain fired chamber.

AntiqueSledMan.

AntiqueSledMan said:

Hello All,

This is a topic which I think is really a serious issue. Personally I believe the "Chain Fire" comes from either a weak chamber, or from the front of the cylinder. I don't believe an over powder wad, or even packing grease over the projectile will stop a true chain fire.
I urge you all to read the following link, then make up your own mind.
http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html
I must admit I held back on this issue, As some people can get pretty crazy.
We've discussed this on the "1858" & "Colt Country" forums.
We even have a chain fire log going, lots of theories. When a chain fire is reported, the shooter gets quizzed. I believe the last chain fire never set off the cap on the chain fired chamber.

AntiqueSledMan.

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The link doesn’t work.

Enfield58 said:

The link doesn’t work.

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It's good here.

This is an argument and topic that will never end. I started with BP revolvers 20 years ago and used grease over ball method but was just too messy. Figuring a ring of lead shaved off sealed it from that end so I stopped using it. Now I use a 7/16 hollow punch on cork sheets. Never had a chainfire but that doesn't mean I won't. I guess it's the nature of these guns. The answer is to use a cartridge revolver and miss out on all the fun, I got bored quick with those.

Stantheman86 said:

I think the consensus is that Chain Fires are caused by loose fitting caps?:

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Samuel Colt believed that chain fires could occur from either front or rear of the cylinder. He therefore devised and documented solutions for both. He says so on pages 9 and 10 of the following document:

"On the application of machinery to the manufacture of rotating chambered-breech fire-arms and their peculiarities" - by Samuel Colt.

If you want to read Samuel Colt's words on chain fires, then go to books.google.com and enter the title above: "On the application of machinery to the manufacture of rotating chambered-breech fire-arms and their peculiarities" (include the quotation marks). Then scroll down to pages 9 and 10. Most of his explanation and a diagram is on page 10.

Those are Samuel Colt's words, but likely not the last words on this topic.

MikeEasy said:

Samuel Colt believed that chain fires could occur from either front or rear of the cylinder. He therefore devised and documented solutions for both. He says so on pages 9 and 10 of the following document:

"On the application of machinery to the manufacture of rotating chambered-breech fire-arms and their peculiarities" - by Samuel Colt.

If you want to read Samuel Colt's words on chain fires, then go to books.google.com and enter the title above: "On the application of machinery to the manufacture of rotating chambered-breech fire-arms and their peculiarities" (include the quotation marks). Then scroll down to pages 9 and 10. Most of his explanation and a diagram is on page 10.

Those are Samuel Colt's words, but likely not the last words on this topic.

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Thank you for that, MikeEasy. That is the first time I have heard or seen the idea that chamfered chamber mouths are necessary to prevent chain fires.

.44 associate said:

Thank you for that, MikeEasy. That is the first time I have heard or seen the idea that chamfered chamber mouths are necessary to prevent chain fires.

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He must have changed his mind. I’ve never seen an Army model of 1860 with chamfered chambers. And as every schoolboy knows, until Bill Ruger gave us the Old Army the Colts Army model of 1860 must be regarded as the zenith of percussion pistol development...




















;-)

Swaging the ball into a chamber without a square shoulder. Why who'd a thunk.

ugly old guy said:

Actually, I am an ugly old man (if you doubt the truthfulness of that, look at my picture. That ugly thing really is me.) that speaks its mind, whether face to face or on a forum.
Truth to tell, I quit caring what "people" (note quotes) think of me over 60 year ago.

I've found over the years that many otherwise intelligent people believe old wives tales they read on the internet ("so it must be true...") that logic and that (now rare commodity "common sense", which appears to be either critically endangered, or extinct these days.) says is B.S.

You cannot deny there have been and are a lot of "people" (note quotes) that do not know how to think for themselves over the last 40 plus years.
"Schools" (note quotes) have trained kids not to think for themselves, or to ask questions for too many years.

Like I said, if you use the proper size ball when loading your revolver, you shave a ring of lead off the ball. These is no gap for the spark or heat to reach the powder.
If you put lube over the chamber mouth, it is melted away on every chamber mouth, on the first shot, leaving nothing over the remaining chamber mouths.

As for shooting C&B revolvers for another 30 or 40 years … Not going to happen.
I doubt I have more than 10 or 15 years (if that) left on top of this rock.
I don't have any reason to believe I will reach my 80's, 90's, or 100's alive.

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Well, the better 2/3's doesn't say I'm ugly (yeah, she might be saving my ego) but my experience shows that the melted lube is down there in that crevice between the ball and chamber wall and that it inhibits the flow of that self propelling, self pressurizing, molten, incandescent plasma that we call "black" powder. Whether it's a greased wad, or grease around the bullet grooves or grease in front of the bullet, the front end needs to be greased so OK, I grease it. Whether it only stops chain fires one time out of a hundred shots or for every cylinder full, great!

Watch the shooting portion of this short video. You will see at least three shots demonstrating fire in the cap area. It is very probable that I the origin of chain fires is there.

Mine were in the cap area.

It happens, and it's no mystery as to why. Any time there's a path for that incandescent mass to get through, through the front or through the back.

USMA65 said:

You will see at least three shots demonstrating fire in the cap area. It is very probable that I the origin of chain fires is there.

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Excellent. Thanks, US

Random thoughts from experience: All it takes after 2-4 shots for the remaining caps to work slightly loose and then chain fire....if you check after shot one, the fit of the remaining caps, then repeat after the next and next shot, you can tell if one or all the potentially remaining loose caps may or may not be problematic. Hotter rounds may also be a culprit. It may simply be a nipple cone shape or cap size problem if you have had a chain fire. I believe it to be a VERY rare chain fire from the ball end with a proper over-sized ball. I have lightly roughed up (scored) the blunt edge of the nipples with the edge of a file to keep a proper fitting cap from jarring loose. A little extra effort to remove spent caps (or add a new cap) from a lightly roughed up nipple end is mucho better than a potentially damaging chain fire. Modern nipples are much smoother finished than back in the time! That's not a good thing! Also another advantage to a roughed up nipple is to lesson the chance of a spent split cap blowing off and jamming, locking up the cylinder which was another pet peeve of mine. No more! I don't use wads or grease of any kind in my Colt army. Try it, you might like it!! Good luck!

Edit: Make sure the nipples are in tight!!!

In many years I have never seen or had a chain fire...ever.
I hear folks say lube over the ball prevents such, to which I say BS! A proper fitting ball will seal the muzzle end w/o fail.
Surely someone has captured video of a chain fire. I wanna see that.

My solution to chain fires

In all seriousness, not really, but this conversion by Pedersoli I bought from one of our awesome members is lots of fun to use with choked off paper ball cartridges , and is still Historical in the same period as the Percussion revolvers.



I love my Percussion revolvers too, but the repros inherited the technological faults of the originals. Percussion revolvers have always had kind of a spotty service life from the 1830's- 1860's, with metallurgical issues and fragile actions ( Colt Paterson) . Given that combustible paper cartridges were the norm and no one used grease in the chambers , I think they thought chain fires were just a risk and if it happened in combat , oh well. Maybe it is less of a risk with bullets vs round balls?

Just keep on popping till you get a good chamber. There's a reason anyone with $$ to do so had their cap and ballers converted as soon as that option was available. Most people didn't fire them enough to realize or care about chain fires.

As for us, we just enjoy them , with all their quirks. Percussion Revolvers with their relatively short service life , weren't on the scene long enough for most people to work on any active solution before new technology came along anyway. In fact, there's the whole Rollin White patent thing and the fact that Percussion revolvers were more or less obsolete from the 1850s on but that's a different topic.

I think we may be on to something, with conical bullets sealing off chambers better than a round ball? More surface area to block the hot gases?

Also I think flash entering through the nipple is a factor too.

Is there any "period" writing about chain fires?

This topic is as funny as ever. We should always have at least one active chain fire thread.

Yes, we should always have at least one active chain fire thread, but not because they are as funny as ever, but because they just might bring constant awareness of a problem and which just might save a limb, an eye, or a life.

This is probably my 3,000th Chain Fire thread in 20+ years , over dozens of internet forums.

"There's got to be a way to stop chain fires"
Yes. It was called the metallic cartridge.