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Measuring patch thickness - wet or dry?

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Centurion

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good morning, and Happy Monday. hope this post is in the right place.

First, a bit of introduction/history...

I am not a fan of plastic - okay, tupperware is okay for leftovers, and rubbermaid is good for totes, but there must be a limit to this.

So a long time ago i made a wooden box for something. And i liked it so much i made another one for some outdoor gear. Before i knew it, i was making boxes for all the gear in the tupperware and rubbermaid - camping gear, camp dutch ovens, shootin’ stuff... the lamp tables downstairs are height-adjustable, depending on how high you stack the boxes. I can’t be the only one who looks at the leftover plywood, one-by or two-by and sorts it into “campfire” or “make a box with” piles. Buy i digress.

As i mentioned somewhere earlier, my black powder days ended 20+ years ago and then last Oct it was like a 20 year hangfire - boom!

So i started gathering all my bp stuff and sorting it, everything that had wound up in plastic tackle boxes. Then i sorted through my plywood pile and built a larger box. For everthing. So now i’m gettin organized. As i was going through gear and finding places for it in the Black Poudre Box, i realized that my scattered collection of patches, ticking material, etc was without any id as to thickness. Abt the same time i got the idea to store them in plastic pill bottles labeled as to thickness.

A lot of writin’ here just to ask how y’all measure patch thickness, and whether you do this dry or pre-lubed?

All help welcome,

don
 
Dry and without the slip portion of the micrometer. Tighten to compress the cloth.
 
With a caliper with the jaws filled with the material and no lube. That's IF i bother to measure it at all. I have a few reliable and repeatable sources and just stick with them.
 
We could benefit from a sticky on the "standard" accepted way to measure patch thickness. Micrometer vs caliper? compress? How much? Use the ratchet? Tighten the mic to maximum force? Everyone seems to have ideas but most are not the same. That means one guy's 0.015" is not comparable to the next.
 
Scota@4570 said:
We could benefit from a sticky on the "standard" accepted way to measure patch thickness. Micrometer vs caliper? compress? How much? Use the ratchet? Tighten the mic to maximum force? Everyone seems to have ideas but most are not the same. That means one guy's 0.015" is not comparable to the next.
Click to expand...
However you do it, consistency is critical. You may want to contact Dutch Schoultz (member @Dr5x on this forum) on his web page (https://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/) and get a copy of his writings for $20.
 
I also recommend getting Dutch's Accuracy system. I may disagree with Dutch on his method of compressing patch material with a micrometer. ( My father was a tool maker and he will be rolling over in his grave if I ever used the compression Dutch recommends. Dutch says I measure cloth like one would measure metal, ) Patch material undergoes serious compression while loading. Much more really than we do when we measure patch thickness. The mathematics of sizing shows me that. The real key here is consistency.

My method for measuring Patch material thickness: Use a micrometer. Calipers are okay, but consistent pressure is more variable than using a micrometer. Tighten the micrometer so the (washed and dried) material barely slides between the anvils. Using your thumb and finger apply just a bit of pressure to snug, not tight and read the thickness. This will only be 0.001 to 0.003" less than the sliding measurement. You have to experiment, once you find the right patch material and you get consistent measurements, get that thickness of patch material. Make sure the weave is tight and little light is shining through. Patch material should be 100% cotton or 100% linen from flax. No polyester fabrics or synthetic materials. Stick with the utility cloths such as cotton drill, pillow ticking, mattress ticking, denim or canvas.
 
Grenadier1758 said:
I also recommend getting Dutch's Accuracy system. I may disagree with Dutch on his method of compressing patch material with a micrometer. ( My father was a tool maker and he will be rolling over in his grave if I ever used the compression Dutch recommends. Dutch says I measure cloth like one would measure metal, ) Patch material undergoes serious compression while loading. Much more really than we do when we measure patch thickness. The mathematics of sizing shows me that. The real key here is consistency.

My method for measuring Patch material thickness: Use a micrometer. Calipers are okay, but consistent pressure is more variable than using a micrometer. Tighten the micrometer so the (washed and dried) material barely slides between the anvils. Using your thumb and finger apply just a bit of pressure to snug, not tight and read the thickness. This will only be 0.001 to 0.003" less than the sliding measurement. You have to experiment, once you find the right patch material and you get consistent measurements, get that thickness of patch material. Make sure the weave is tight and little light is shining through. Patch material should be 100% cotton or 100% linen from flax. No polyester fabrics or synthetic materials. Stick with the utility cloths such as cotton drill, pillow ticking, mattress ticking, denim or canvas.
Click to expand...

Your father used the micrometer absolutely correct in his work as a tl and die maker. He was measuring hard items. Metal in pst cases.
We are doing something quite different in measuring soft, compressible fabrics. For that we need to exert additional pressure to eliminate the variation in thickness caused by the tightness or looseness of the weave.. I have difficulty in good folks not seeing the difference between denim and steel.

Dutch Schoultz.
 
Dr5x said:
Your father used the micrometer absolutely correct in his work as a tl and die maker. He was measuring hard items. Metal in pst cases.
We are doing something quite different in measuring soft, compressible fabrics. For that we need to exert additional pressure to eliminate the variation in thickness caused by the tightness or looseness of the weave.. I have difficulty in good folks not seeing the difference between denim and steel.

Dutch Schoultz.
Click to expand...
Centurion said:
good morning, and Happy Monday. hope this post is in the right place.

First, a bit of introduction/history...

I am not a fan of plastic - okay, tupperware is okay for leftovers, and rubbermaid is good for totes, but there must be a limit to this.

So a long time ago i made a wooden box for something. And i liked it so much i made another one for some outdoor gear. Before i knew it, i was making boxes for all the gear in the tupperware and rubbermaid - camping gear, camp dutch ovens, shootin’ stuff... the lamp tables downstairs are height-adjustable, depending on how high you stack the boxes. I can’t be the only one who looks at the leftover plywood, one-by or two-by and sorts it into “campfire” or “make a box with” piles. Buy i digress.

As i mentioned somewhere earlier, my black powder days ended 20+ years ago and then last Oct it was like a 20 year hangfire - boom!

So i started gathering all my bp stuff and sorting it, everything that had wound up in plastic tackle boxes. Then i sorted through my plywood pile and built a larger box. For everthing. So now i’m gettin organized. As i was going through gear and finding places for it in the Black Poudre Box, i realized that my scattered collection of patches, ticking material, etc was without any id as to thickness. Abt the same time i got the idea to store them in plastic pill bottles labeled as to thickness.

A lot of writin’ here just to ask how y’all measure patch thickness, and whether you do this dry or pre-lubed?

All help welcome,

don
Click to expand...

WHEN THE SHOOTING PATCH IS ENGAGED BETWEEN BALL AND WALL OF THE BORE IS WHEREITS THICNESS COMES INTO PLAY. IF YOU MEASURE IT IN A COMPRESSED MANNER, WET OR DRY, YOU WANT TO SEE HOW THICK IT IS SO THERE IS NO BLOWBY OF THE POWERFUL GASSES OF THE POWDER EXPLOSION. OR TOO THICK SO IT IS NOT DIFFICULT TO LOAD.
GETTING IT A CLOSE TO EXACTLY RIGHT SEEMS TO INCREASE THE CHANCE OF TIGHTER GROUPS.
HOLDING THE SMOOTH PART OF THE MICROMETER BARREL BETWEEN THUMB AND FOREFINGER ALLOWS YOU TO EXERT JUST ABOUT THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF PRESSURE. IF YOU PRESS TOO HARD THE ABOVE DISCRIBED HOLD WILL SLIP..
I SUGGEST PEOPLE MOVE THE MIC ABOUT FROM PLACE TO PLACE TILL THEY NOTE THEY ARE GETTING THE SAME READING EVERY TIME.
MICROMETERS WERE DESIGNED TO MEASURE THE THICKNESS OF HARD THINGS. AND YOU USE THE WEE CLICKER FOR THAT. WE ARE MEASURING MATERIAL THAT IS THICKER OR THINNER DEPENDIING ON THE TIGHTNESS OR LOOSENESS OF THE WEAVE.
DUTCH SCHOULTZ
 
Dr5x said:
Your father used the micrometer absolutely correct in his work as a tl and die maker. He was measuring hard items. Metal in pst cases.
We are doing something quite different in measuring soft, compressible fabrics. For that we need to exert additional pressure to eliminate the variation in thickness caused by the tightness or looseness of the weave.. I have difficulty in good folks not seeing the difference between denim and steel.

Dutch Schoultz.
Click to expand...
Dutch, I am going to make good on my visit to see you. I have obligations for the next couple of weeks, but then, I am going to select some patching fabric, several micrometers and calipers so we can share insight on measuring patch thickness and compression. I do think we have a more common technique than we think. We do need to come up with a good procedure to measure patch thickness and compression so that someone else will come up with results consistent with our results.
 
I use a rachet type micrometer in the store (Walmart) as is, meaning dry.
BTW, I do some wood working and, like you, do not believe there is any such thing as 'scrap wood'. I have made many items from my pile of cut-offs. Danger in building wood boxes for our ml stuff is we make the too big and fill with too much 'stuff'. My wood range box had gotten to the point where I was needing to add a V-8 and wheels get it around. Don't hate me, but I devolved back to plastic and now use an old tackle box that I can actually lift.
 
Grenadier1758 said:
Dutch, I am going to make good on my visit to see you. I have obligations for the next couple of weeks, but then, I am going to select some patching fabric, several micrometers and calipers so we can share insight on measuring patch thickness and compression. I do think we have a more common technique than we think. We do need to come up with a good procedure to measure patch thickness and compression so that someone else will come up with results consistent with our results.
Click to expand...

I ALREADY HAVE A GOOD METHOD FOR DETERMINING COMPRESSED PATCH THICKNESS.
WE ARE OMLY INTERESTED IN THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN FABRICS.NOT THE THICKNESS OF A SPECIFIC PIECE OF CLOTH.
I HAVE FOUND THAT I WILL GET DIFFERENT READING IF I SWITCH TO A DIFFERENT MICROMETER.I DON'T KNOW WHERE I WROTE IT BUT I RECOMMEND THAT PEOPLE USE ONE MICRMETER IN DETERMINING THE COMPRESSED THICKNESS OF VARIOUS SAMPLES.
DUTCH
 
Dutch, you are absolutely correct that you should always use the same micrometer to measure patch thickness. I have used several micrometers and I do get different measurements on the same piece of fabric. While different, the measurements are pretty close, within 0.001" to 0.003" on a nominal 0.017" piece of fabric. The process to be developed is to be consistent with the selected micrometer.
 
Grenadier1758 said:
Dutch, you are absolutely correct that you should always use the same micrometer to measure patch thickness. I have used several micrometers and I do get different measurements on the same piece of fabric. While different, the measurements are pretty close, within 0.001" to 0.003" on a nominal 0.017" piece of fabric. The process to be developed is to be consistent with the selected micrometer.
Click to expand...

I'M ALWAYS CORRECT. I FIND IT SAVES TIME.
DUTCH
 
Dr5x said:
I'M ALWAYS CORRECT. I FIND IT SAVES TIME.
DUTCH
Click to expand...

I HOPE YOU WILL ALL FORGIVE ME FOR A SMART ASS MOMENT.
WHEN PEOPLE. GOOD PEOPLE TELL ME I AM I CORRECT ON A SUBJECT I HAVE BEEN HAMMERING ON SINCE 1983 I GRT A BIT TOUVHY.
I'M NOT ALWAYS CORRECT. I WAS MARRIED ONCE AND HAD THAT INTED OUT TO ME ALMOST DAILY.

DUTCH
 
Dry. I triple the material and use the slip clutch on my micrometer. As long as you consistently measuring the material that produces the accurate load for your rifle you are in good shape.

Note that if you take an empty micrometer and twist with even light pressure it will go into negative readings, so unless you have "tared" that negative value at that torque you are chasing your own tail. There is a proper way to use any tool.
 
I measure with a dial caliper and do it the same way every time. I ratchet up the jaws with the material between them; then I squeeze with the thumbs and forefingers of both hands to arrive at the thickness. Actual (whatever that means) thickness is not very important as long as one measures the same way every time. Be consistent and your measurements are as valid as those of anyone else.
 

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