Dialing in the proper Minie . . .

dave951 · Jan 3, 2020

Gregory Mitchell said:
I tried bullets from three moulds, at 55 yds. with 55 grains of Triple 7 2F: 1) Lee "old style" Minie with thin skirt, 2) Lee "REAL" bullet, and 3) Lee "Improved Minie" with much thicker skirt. The first two miked at .575 average with the "improved" Minies miking at about .576-.577. I dip lubed them in SPG.

First off, I'm NSSA and we shoot for speed AND accuracy.

Only ONE mold design from LEE has worked in any of my muskets, and it isn't one you listed. It's a discontinued "target" minie that looks like a standard, flat nose wadcutter. It's very accurate, the rest, no. This mold in 58 is discontinued but you might be able to score one on ebay. This particular LEE mold is only in 575, I haven't seen it in any larger ones. Since all but one of my muskets run 579, this mold is a non starter for all but the one. In that one, it's a tack driver at 50yd. And of course, only pure lead.

For a good selection of test bullets, go to the Bulletman on Lodgewoods page. He's NSSA and makes a very good bullet. Find one that works, then buy the mold.

Best accuracy so far for me, other than that ONE Lee design- RCBS Hogdon, Rapine Trashcan (nearly identical to the Lee and also out of production although Moose makes one very similar), Lyman 577213.

Powder- ditch the subs and run only real deal black. Get the best quality you can afford. I've found Swiss 3f to be the ticket. Goex standard gets close, but it takes more powder to get same velocity, hence the extra expense of Swiss is offset by lower charge levels. In nearly every musket, 60%ish of service charge will deliver best accuracy, all other variables held constant.

Caps, another variable to control. Avoid CCI reenactor ones like ebola if you want accuracy. RWS/Schutzen are the best ones.

Lube can have a HUGE affect on accuracy. Take a known load, change lube and it can either open way up, hold the same or get better. You have to experiment. I've found, in general, beeswax/lard(or tallow) delivers the best accuracy. In controlled testing, lard/tallow out performs crisco in every load tested.

Finally, go over to the NSSA home page and look at the links section, click on "sutlers" and you'll find Moose, Lodgewood, and others. DGW isn't the go to it used to be.

Finally, even with "target" ammo, if all the variables are properly controlled, you can shoot many rounds in succession and the gun will only be as fouled as the first 2 or 3. We did a marksmanship/instruction project with the Scouts this summer and I routinely ran a 63 Remington Contract (aka Zouave) over 40 rounds with no wiping nor loss of accuracy. The gun was still capable of shooting off the clothespins and wires holding targets at 30+ rounds.

Treestalker · Jan 3, 2020

PastorB said:
I am sitting out in the woods right now with my original Colt 1861 Special Musket. Brand new to this forum, looking at internet while waiting for a buck. I saw a question about .575 minie balls. I figure they were sized that way originally so they would load and go boom in any commonly used Civil War era musket. I tried .575 in my musket when I first got it many years ago, it was all that was available locally. Wouldn't group on a paper plate at 25 yards, and my musket has a good clean bore. That was 25 years ago, learned a few things since then. I now use .580 or .581 bullets in my musket. You would swear I'm lying if I told you how accurate it is, 3 shot cloverleafs at 100 yards, with standard 60 grain charge. Couldn't believe how much difference 5 or 6 thousandths make. I have killed many deer over the years with my rifle, hoping to get another before sunset. I order my minies from Pat Kaboskey, a 510 grain traditionally styled bullet, sized and lubed to .580.

Thank you for your post! Wonder if we may have Mr. Kabowsky's contact information?

Treestalker · Jan 3, 2020

I have a Remington 1863 Contract Rifle that I modified to a 26" barrel with no bayonet lug and shortened the military stock and re-positioned the front barrel band and made a period military leather sling for it. Recrowned the barrel and tried shooting a supply of thick skirted minies. No luck, but have not bumped the charge up over 75 gr. I hope to find a heavy bullet load for large critters with 100 yard acceptable accuracy. I soldered on a front sight I made. The Minies seem a tad loose for the barrel, and I wonder if anyone has suggestions for a minie/charge combo to emulate Turner Kirkland's Africa load? The gun is a Zoli from Navy Arms. I shoot only Goex black, have all sizes. Would like to find a Lee mould or Lyman blocks to make my own. Thanks in advance, Geo.

Grenadier1758 · Jan 3, 2020

By now, you should realize that the first step in dialing in a performance accuracy load is to measure the bore diameter. This can be a problem if you have a rifle with an odd number of lands. A few pin gauges in the 0.575 to 0.580 would be a great help for us to suggest a load. We should also have information on the lubricant you are using. What was the diameter of the minie ball you were using?

dave951 · Jan 3, 2020

Treestalker said:
Thank you for your post! Wonder if we may have Mr. Kabowsky's contact information?

http://www.lodgewood.com/Bullets_c_7.html

dave951 · Jan 3, 2020

http://oldfoxtraders.com/TnMolds/

https://moosemoulds.wixsite.com/mm2013

https://www.northeasttradeco.com/

https://www.n-ssa.org/sutlers

Treestalker · Jan 3, 2020

Thanks Dave!

DaveC · Jan 4, 2020

One thing Pat Kaboskey up in Wisconsin was able to do for me was provide me with a set of sized Minié/Burton bullets along a range. I hand fit those into the muzzle of my M1841 .58 to see which one was the closest fit, measured it with my calipers, and then ordered a bunch of bullets from him in that size. In the meantime, I saved up to get the correct size mould and a sizing die. By now I've got several moulds for everything from .310 up to .685.

If you can find some skirmishers in your area or even regional events, you can go to those and try out your Enfield alongside other competitors. In my experience, N-SSA guys share a lot of "dope" about what worked for them and what didn't. Every now and then someone hangs it up, and then the cartridge boxes, bandoliers, and even firearms come up for sale for pretty reasonable second-hand prices. I haven't made the "pilgrimage" to Winchester yet, but at some point, time permitting, I just might.

One of the champion shooters out of Norway, Mr. Øyvind Flatnes wrote about getting a 94 point target based on the top ten of thirteen shots using a .577 P1856 short rifle with a 1 turn in 78" rate of twist, prone, at 100 meters. His "recipe" was the Lyman 575213 Old Style 491 grain--pretty old school bullet, much like the original Burton--lubed with coconut oil and beeswax in about a 50/50 ratio and a touch of olive oil. The charge he used was 55gr of Swiss No.3. RWS "Zundhütchen" musket caps from Fürth in Bavaria (RWS1081) The bullets were sized to .5775. MV was 1,112fps.

Getting Minié/Burton bullets dialed in takes some doing, and is quite a bit different from shooting patched round balls, but certainly they are capable of great accuracy. In olden times a 60-grain charge of "musket powder" like our FFg produced a muzzle velocity of 900-950fps. These days, a modern FFFg of about 45-50 grains will offer the same. This is one of the reasons that guys--and gals--in the N-SSSA can get optimum accuracy results with much, much smaller charges of powder. As written up post, the Swiss is about 10-15+ hotter than other types, including Goex.

Some skirmishers recommend starting out with a light load, shooting a group, and then walking up from there with 2 additional grains of powder per group. So start with something like 35grains of FFFg. In my case, I'm pretty sure I started up with 5 grain increments. But then I'm not a champeen shooter either!

Good luck and good shooting! Hope you get a load worked out.

dave951 · Jan 5, 2020

Holy moly a convert!! Thanks DaveC, that's exactly how to do it.

Now get yerself up to Winchester and come look me up at the Palmetto Sharpshooters camp. Alternatively, come up to the Statesville Homecoming Skirmish. It's usually the last one of the year and very well attended and we shoot artillery. You also should contact RaiderANV on the NSSA board, he's in TX and a mover and shaker in the NSSA and all round good guy.

Gregory Mitchell · Jan 5, 2020

DaveC said:
One thing Pat Kaboskey up in Wisconsin was able to do for me was provide me with a set of sized Minié/Burton bullets along a range. I hand fit those into the muzzle of my M1841 .58 to see which one was the closest fit, measured it with my calipers, and then ordered a bunch of bullets from him in that size. In the meantime, I saved up to get the correct size mould and a sizing die. By now I've got several moulds for everything from .310 up to .685.

If you can find some skirmishers in your area or even regional events, you can go to those and try out your Enfield alongside other competitors. In my experience, N-SSA guys share a lot of "dope" about what worked for them and what didn't. Every now and then someone hangs it up, and then the cartridge boxes, bandoliers, and even firearms come up for sale for pretty reasonable second-hand prices. I haven't made the "pilgrimage" to Winchester yet, but at some point, time permitting, I just might.

One of the champion shooters out of Norway, Mr. Øyvind Flatnes wrote about getting a 94 point target based on the top ten of thirteen shots using a .577 P1856 short rifle with a 1 turn in 78" rate of twist, prone, at 100 meters. His "recipe" was the Lyman 575213 Old Style 491 grain--pretty old school bullet, much like the original Burton--lubed with coconut oil and beeswax in about a 50/50 ratio and a touch of olive oil. The charge he used was 55gr of Swiss No.3. RWS "Zundhütchen" musket caps from Fürth in Bavaria (RWS1081) The bullets were sized to .5775. MV was 1,112fps.

Getting Minié/Burton bullets dialed in takes some doing, and is quite a bit different from shooting patched round balls, but certainly they are capable of great accuracy. In olden times a 60-grain charge of "musket powder" like our FFg produced a muzzle velocity of 900-950fps. These days, a modern FFFg of about 45-50 grains will offer the same. This is one of the reasons that guys--and gals--in the N-SSSA can get optimum accuracy results with much, much smaller charges of powder. As written up post, the Swiss is about 10-15+ hotter than other types, including Goex.

Some skirmishers recommend starting out with a light load, shooting a group, and then walking up from there with 2 additional grains of powder per group. So start with something like 35grains of FFFg. In my case, I'm pretty sure I started up with 5 grain increments. But then I'm not a champeen shooter either!

Good luck and good shooting! Hope you get a load worked out.

Thanks! All great info. Last night I cast 40 new 405-gn "Blue & Grey" Minies from my new Lyman mould, and if they shoot as good as they look, or even close, I'll be happy. We'll see. The Lyman bullets weigh out between 410-415 gns. and measure a very consistent .577-.578. Anxious to try them, hopefully later today.

Stantheman86 · Jan 5, 2020

I just ordered some Gillie's Bullet Lube but it's likely a Bore Butter variant.

I have a small Ebay vendor's copy of Javelina lube (50/50 Alox-Beeswax ) but don't think I'll use that in my muzzleloaders.

dave951 · Jan 5, 2020

Stantheman86 said:
I just ordered some Gillie's Bullet Lube but it's likely a Bore Butter variant.

I have a small Ebay vendor's copy of Javelina lube (50/50 Alox-Beeswax ) but don't think I'll use that in my muzzleloaders.

Alox is a very bad idea with real black powder. It makes for some hard fouling. Stick with natural stuff.

Stantheman86 · Jan 5, 2020

I'm gonna stay away from it, maybe wait until I eventually load up stuff like smokeless 45-70 if I ever get a Pedersoli Sharps in that caliber.

Gregory Mitchell · Jan 5, 2020

Well, well . . . today I got out for a long outing to try my new Lyman cast Minies -- the "Blue-Grey" 405 grainers -- and I was disappointed in their performance. I tried from 45-55 grains powder, in 5-gn increments, and just never got consistency with them (except for a single aberrant 5-shot group) @ 60 yards. For comparison, I switched back to my Lee old-style Minies (510-ish grains with a VERY thin skirt) and got better results, using a 50 gn charge. "Better results" means that the old style Minies shot in a group of around 5" and were placed in the 8 and 9 rings. The Lyman bullets were all over the place.

This really is trial and error, isn't it? I had such high hopes for the Lyman bullets -- they cast beautifully and looked like they'd be the ticket, but seems my Enfield is showing a preference for old-style, heavy Minies.

dave951 · Jan 5, 2020

Gregory Mitchell said:
Well, well . . . today I got out for a long outing to try my new Lyman cast Minies -- the "Blue-Grey" 405 grainers -- and I was disappointed in their performance. I tried from 45-55 grains powder, in 5-gn increments, and just never got consistency with them (except for a single aberrant 5-shot group) @ 60 yards. For comparison, I switched back to my Lee old-style Minies (510-ish grains with a VERY thin skirt) and got better results, using a 50 gn charge. "Better results" means that the old style Minies shot in a group of around 5" and were placed in the 8 and 9 rings. The Lyman bullets were all over the place.

This really is trial and error, isn't it? I had such high hopes for the Lyman bullets -- they cast beautifully and looked like they'd be the ticket, but seems my Enfield is showing a preference for old-style, heavy Minies.

Couple of questions, pure lead? lube? type of powder (it can matter)? caps? measured bore size? What KIND of Enfield? Some of the Euroarms and Armisports are awful shooters. My Birmingham P58 is a sub 2moa gun with RCBS Hogdons, 40g 3f Swiss, RWS caps, beeswax/lard 50/50.

And yes, some rifling will only shoot the heavier bullets and yes, there is quite a bit of trial and error.

gemmer · Jan 5, 2020

Gregory Mitchell said:
Well, well . . . today I got out for a long outing to try my new Lyman cast Minies -- the "Blue-Grey" 405 grainers -- and I was disappointed in their performance. I tried from 45-55 grains powder, in 5-gn increments, and just never got consistency with them (except for a single aberrant 5-shot group) @ 60 yards. For comparison, I switched back to my Lee old-style Minies (510-ish grains with a VERY thin skirt) and got better results, using a 50 gn charge. "Better results" means that the old style Minies shot in a group of around 5" and were placed in the 8 and 9 rings. The Lyman bullets were all over the place.

This really is trial and error, isn't it? I had such high hopes for the Lyman bullets -- they cast beautifully and looked like they'd be the ticket, but seems my Enfield is showing a preference for old-style, heavy Minies.

Are you using black powder?

Gregory Mitchell · Jan 6, 2020

gemmer said:
Are you using black powder?

Uhh . . . no. I'm using Triple 7 2F. But I cast my bullets with pure lead and dip lube them in SPG.

Thanks for all the good input. I'm having fun with this challenge.

Stantheman86 · Jan 6, 2020

Has anyone used this American Pioneer stuff? I have 2 lbs of the "2f", people both rave about it and trash it.

dave951 · Jan 6, 2020

Gregory Mitchell said:
Uhh . . . no. I'm using Triple 7 2F. But I cast my bullets with pure lead and dip lube them in SPG.

Thanks for all the good input. I'm having fun with this challenge.

Get a can of 3f Schutzen, Goex or Swiss. Ditch SPG, that's more for bp cartridge guns. Use beeswax/lard (tallow,olive oil) 50/50.

Caps? Bullet sized properly?

Stantheman86 · Jan 6, 2020

SPG is a bit "moist " for Minies in my opinion, it works well for keeping fouling soft but it creates kind of a "suction" on loading.

SPG makes a product called SPG Tropical which probably sets up firmer.

My overall favorite lube was pure Beeswax but it cakes up in my sizers and is kind of a pain.

gemmer · Jan 7, 2020

Stantheman86 said:
SPG is a bit "moist " for Minies in my opinion, it works well for keeping fouling soft but it creates kind of a "suction" on loading.

SPG makes a product called SPG Tropical which probably sets up firmer.

My overall favorite lube was pure Beeswax but it cakes up in my sizers and is kind of a pain.

I've used MCM for my minies for years and SPG for BPCR. I just lubed up a batch of minies for my 58s and 69s with some Len's Lube that I've had laying around for a while. I'm looking forward to shooting them.

Dialing in the proper Minie . . .

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