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Castor oil / Denatured alcohol patch lube users question

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I do not add any water to the Castor oil / denatured alcohol mix I use. I just mix the two in a container, put on a lid, and then shake the heck out of it. I then dip the patches once in the solution and then set them on a screen to let the alcohol evaporate out. I've only experimented with 8:1, 5:1, and 6:1 so far. The 8:1 wasn't real fun to load and groups weren't anything to write home about, so I jumped to 5:1 which loaded nice and wasn't a real bad group. Then I tried 6:1 and found that it loaded okay and my groups were better than the 5:1 so I have so far stayed with it. I'd like to try 7:1 on my next trip to the range, as well as a couple of Ballistol/water ratios.

I have shot the CO/DA again since I made this post, with some fresh lube and freshly dipped patches, and found that my groups were good again, so I decided letting this lube sit on a patch for very long wasn't a good idea. I should've updated this thread with that info.

To me half the fun of shooting patched roundball is all of the experimenting one can do with the different components. I have found several combinations that are just fine for hunting, but continue to experiment just for the fun of seeing what groups I can get with different combinations.
 
I do not add any water to the Castor oil / denatured alcohol mix I use. I just mix the two in a container, put on a lid, and then shake the heck out of it. I then dip the patches once in the solution and then set them on a screen to let the alcohol evaporate out. I've only experimented with 8:1, 5:1, and 6:1 so far. The 8:1 wasn't real fun to load and groups weren't anything to write home about, so I jumped to 5:1 which loaded nice and wasn't a real bad group. Then I tried 6:1 and found that it loaded okay and my groups were better than the 5:1 so I have so far stayed with it. I'd like to try 7:1 on my next trip to the range, as well as a couple of Ballistol/water ratios.

I have shot the CO/DA again since I made this post, with some fresh lube and freshly dipped patches, and found that my groups were good again, so I decided letting this lube sit on a patch for very long wasn't a good idea. I should've updated this thread with that info.

To me half the fun of shooting patched roundball is all of the experimenting one can do with the different components. I have found several combinations that are just fine for hunting, but continue to experiment just for the fun of seeing what groups I can get with different combinations.
RENEGADE.
IT DEPENDS ON THE OIL YOU ARE USING BUT I FOUND 7 TO 1 AND 8 TO 10 WITH WATER SOLUBLE OIL, VERY LITTLE OIL, WAS AMAZING. I THOUGHT SLICKER WAS QUICKER ETC BUT IN EXPERIMENTING FOUND THE LESS OIL THE TIGHTER THE GROUP. THAT'S MY EXPERIENCE.

DUTCH
 
Ned Roberts " The best patch lube found for round balls " SPIT.

Now that's fer target shooting. I tried the dry patch method and it wasn't good for hunting simply because another round could not be loaded due to lack of patch lube.

There's a million patch lube recipes out there. Some, make you wonder about the fellow that came up with such ingredients, others that work, others that dont work so well and then there's the rest of the recipes.

We hear so much talk about cotton patches.. Maybe thats the problem with poor accuracy? Have not tried linen myself but thats what was used in the day.
 
I have thought that at least during the rocky mountain fur trade era they might have used brain tan hide.
 
I have thought that at least during the rocky mountain fur trade era they might have used brain tan hide.

Ya, they might have, but I don't think they did. The fur trade was driven by "trade", with both whites and natives. Trade with natives and trappers was where the real money was. Cloth was a popular trade item.
I've tried Leather and found it to be lacking. Why go to all the trouble of making leather, and then using it for patches. ? What if it's too thick or thin ? Besides, hides was money. Who uses money for patching ?
The inner bark from a poplar or aspen works as good or better and I can adjust the thickness in a second. Trees are also easier to come by than leather.

Besides, a mountain man could easily carry all the cloth patching he would ever need, assuming he patched his balls in the first place.
 
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I have thought that at least during the rocky mountain fur trade era they might have used brain tan hide.
Nope. considering the time and effort of brain tanning I seriously doubt trappers were pushing hard earned money down the barrel of their shooter for any reason.

Never once have i read about a mountain man, hunter, trapper ever using leather for a patch.
Exactly!

Ya, they might have, but I don't think they did. The fur trade was driven by "trade", with both whites and natives. Trade with natives and trappers was where the real money was. Cloth was a popular trade item.

I've tried Leather and found it to be lacking. Why go to all the trouble of making leather, and then using it for patches. ? What if it's too thick or thin ? Besides, hides was money. Who uses money for patching ?

The inner bark from a poplar or aspen works as good or better and I can adjust the thickness in a second. Trees are also easier to come by than leather.

Besides, a mountain man could easily carry all the cloth patching he would ever need, assuming he patched his balls in the first place.
Agreed!
 
Ned Roberts " The best patch lube found for round balls " SPIT.

Now that's fer target shooting. I tried the dry patch method and it wasn't good for hunting simply because another round could not be loaded due to lack of patch lube.

There's a million patch lube recipes out there. Some, make you wonder about the fellow that came up with such ingredients, others that work, others that dont work so well and then there's the rest of the recipes.

We hear so much talk about cotton patches.. Maybe thats the problem with poor accuracy? Have not tried linen myself but thats what was used in the day.
I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THE OLD TYME PATCH MATERIAL WAS MUCH MORE LIKE OSNABERG. SEEMED TOO THIN FOR ME.
DUTCH
 
There's a million patch lube recipes out there.
"Only" a million?!?
I fear your missing the majority ...

"We hear so much talk about cotton patches.. Maybe thats the problem with poor accuracy? Have not tried linen myself but thats what was used in the day."

I've always used pillow ticking (I like the blue stripe best) which I think is tightly woven cotton.
Linen is difficult (at best) to find local around here.
 
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"Only" a million?!?
I fear your missing the majority ...

"We hear so much talk about cotton patches.. Maybe thats the problem with poor accuracy? Have not tried linen myself but thats what was used in the day."

I've always used pillow ticking (I like the blue stripe best) which I think is tightly woven cotton.
Linen is difficult (at best) to find local around here.
MY EUROPEAN CORRESPONDENTS TELL ME THAT COTTON ANYTHING IS HARD TO FIND OVER THERE MOST FABRICS BEINF MODERN ARTIFICIAL.
DUTCH
 
MY EUROPEAN CORRESPONDENTS TELL ME THAT COTTON ANYTHING IS HARD TO FIND OVER THERE MOST FABRICS BEINF MODERN ARTIFICIAL.
That's true, all is mostly mixed with polyester or other fibers like acrylic (never buy bed sheets or pillows)...
For the pure cotton we have to go in tissues shops selling cotton...
Micrometer in one hand and money in the other one... :D
 
"Only" a million?!?
I fear your missing the majority ...

"We hear so much talk about cotton patches.. Maybe thats the problem with poor accuracy? Have not tried linen myself but thats what was used in the day."

I've always used pillow ticking (I like the blue stripe best) which I think is tightly woven cotton.
Linen is difficult (at best) to find local around here.
IN REGARD TO PATCH LUBRICATION I HAVEREPEATEDLY HAMMERED AWAY HERE FOR SOME TIME ABOUT MY DISCOVERY THAT THE LESS LUBRICATION THE TIGHTER THE GROUPES.
I WAS QUITE SURPRISED BY THAT KNOWLEGE..
IF THE LUBRICATION IS TOO MUCH THE PATCHED BALL BEGINS MOVNG DOWN THE BARREL AS SOON AS THE POWDER BEGINS TO BURN AND MAY BE SOME DISTANCE DOWN RANGE BEFORE THE POWDER HAS DONE ITS JOB. THE EFFECT IS THE SAME AS TOO WEAK A POWDER CHARGE.
I HAD MY BEST RESULTS WITH SO LITTLE LUBE YOU COULD ONLY SMELL IT BUT NO FEEL IT.

DUTCH
 
IF THE LUBRICATION IS TOO MUCH THE PATCHED BALL BEGINS MOVNG DOWN THE BARREL AS SOON AS THE POWDER BEGINS TO BURN AND MAY BE SOME DISTANCE DOWN RANGE BEFORE THE POWDER HAS DONE ITS JOB. THE EFFECT IS THE SAME AS TOO WEAK A POWDER CHARGE.

SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR 'TOO SLICK LUBE" THEORY HAS ALWAYS BOTHERED ME, DUTCH. MAYBE YOU CAN STRAIGHTEN ME OUT.

SINCE WE ALL UNDERSTAND THAT THE HEART AND SOUL OF ACCURACY IS CONSISTENCY IN EVERYTHING, IT'S FAIR TO ASSUME THE NEXT SHOT AFTER THAT ONE YOIU DESCRIBE WHICH STARTS UP THE BARREL TOO SOON WOULD BE LOADED IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, INCLUDING THE "TOO SLICK LUBE", RIGHT? SO, THE VELOCITY OF THE SECOND SHOT WOULD BE EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE FIRST, WOULDN'T IT? AND THE THIRD? AND THE FOURTH? IF ALL THE SHOTS ARE COMING OUT OF THE BARREL TOO SOON BUT WITH EXACTLY THE SAME VELOCITY, SIMPLE PHYSICS WILL MAKE THEM ALL FLY ALONG EXACTLY THE SAME PATH. SO, MY QUESTION... WHAT MAKES THEM INACCURATE? IF YOUR THEORY IS CORRECT AND "TOO SLICK LUBE" LOWERS THE VELOCITY OF ALL SHOTS EQUALLY, THAT JUST MEANS ALL WILL STRIKE LOWER, BUT ON THE SAME PATH, HIT THE TARGET AT THE SAME SPOT.

WHERE'S THE PROBLEM?

SPENCE
 
What happens to lube, grease or oil when extreme pressure is applied to it ?

What is that going to do to the ball and or patch ?

Excess patch lube has to go somewhere and do something when the powder is ignited.

The right amount of lube does it's job, but an excess amount ?

I think it deforms the ball via hydraulic pressure or the excess lube penetrates the patch and pushes the ball away from the patch, or both. (just thinking out loud ) :rolleyes:
 
I'd be more concerned with the excess on a over-lubed grease, oil, water patch contaminating the powder and causing inconsistencies than I would the ball and patch "fit" being too slippery. If it's tight enough the rifling is causing enough drag to get the charge to it's 8,000 to 10,000 psi maximum.

You're losing more out the vent or nipple hole than a lube difference probably makes.

Intuitively, if you "just fill the weave" it is a visual check that you have lubed consistently - and consistency is the key to accuracy. If you're using a liquid or saliva - do it the same each time.
 
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SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR 'TOO SLICK LUBE" THEORY HAS ALWAYS BOTHERED ME, DUTCH. MAYBE YOU CAN STRAIGHTEN ME OUT.

SINCE WE ALL UNDERSTAND THAT THE HEART AND SOUL OF ACCURACY IS CONSISTENCY IN EVERYTHING, IT'S FAIR TO ASSUME THE NEXT SHOT AFTER THAT ONE YOIU DESCRIBE WHICH STARTS UP THE BARREL TOO SOON WOULD BE LOADED IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, INCLUDING THE "TOO SLICK LUBE", RIGHT? SO, THE VELOCITY OF THE SECOND SHOT WOULD BE EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE FIRST, WOULDN'T IT? AND THE THIRD? AND THE FOURTH? IF ALL THE SHOTS ARE COMING OUT OF THE BARREL TOO SOON BUT WITH EXACTLY THE SAME VELOCITY, SIMPLE PHYSICS WILL MAKE THEM ALL FLY ALONG EXACTLY THE SAME PATH. SO, MY QUESTION... WHAT MAKES THEM INACCURATE? IF YOUR THEORY IS CORRECT AND "TOO SLICK LUBE" LOWERS THE VELOCITY OF ALL SHOTS EQUALLY, THAT JUST MEANS ALL WILL STRIKE LOWER, BUT ON THE SAME PATH, HIT THE TARGET AT THE SAME SPOT.

WHERE'S THE PROBLEM?

SPENCE
MY GOD, SPENCE. I'M DELIGHTED TO SEE YOU ARE STILL WITH US.

TOO SLICK A PATCH LUBE HAS THE BALL MOVING DOWN AND OUT OF THE BARREL BEFORE THE POWDER HAS BEEN ABLE TO create all its possible pressure. The result is the same as too weak a powder charge.
There is also something to be said for the increased resistance of the dry patch allowing the pressure to build a nanosecond before moving.
When wgkingon my "Dry" patch lubrication system I noticed that the less oil in the patch material the tighter my groups became. This was contrary to my previous beliefs that slicker was quicker. My entire original purpose in the Dry Patch routine was just to have every patch equally lubricated to eliminate a vertical string of hits. The increased accuracy was entirely unexpected.

I don't believe you have my eBook. If you send me an email at
[email protected]
I'll send you a copy as a Christmas gift.It may seem a little odd because I made an effort to keep it at a Seventh Grade educational level
I spent a large part of my life teaching both at the secondary level in Iowa and at the college level at Washington university. and learned that bulk of good folks will just skip over areas that just seem too "hard"/
I'm glad to hear from old timers. I'll be 92 next March and their considering fitting me with a Pacemaker.
My vision is such that I cannot proof what I have typed above so please excuse any creative typographical errors.

Merry Christmas

Dutch Schoultz
 
YEP, STILL UP AND KICKING, DUTCH. IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE THE OLD MLML DAYS, HASN'T IT? THANKS FOR THE KIND OFFER OF YOUR BOOK, BUT I ALREADY HAVE A COPY.

I UNDERSTAND YOUR THINKING ON THE "TOO SLICK" LUBE", BUT I THINK YOU ARE NOT CONSIDERING SOMETHING IMPORTANT, INERTIA...A BODY AT REST TENDS TO STAY AT REST. THAT BALL IS NOT FREE TO JUST SLIP UP THE BORE AS SOON AS THE PRESSURE STARTS RISING, IT HAPPENS TOO QUICKLY. CONSIDER THE FACT THAT HOLLOW-BASE CONICALS, WHICH ARE NOT TOUCHING THE BORE TIGHTLY, IF AT ALL... VERY LOW FRICTION, NO LUBE..., RESIST MOVING SO MUCH THAT THEY ARE DEFORMED, THE LEAD BECOMES PLASTIC AND FLOWS. THE PRESSURE GETS SO HIGH SO QUICKLY THAT THE SKIRTS FLARE AND THE WHOLE BODY IS SHORTENED. THE BACK END OF THE BULLET BEGINS MOVING BEFORE THE FRONT END, BECAUSE THE CONICAL IS LOCKED IN PLACE BY INERTIA.

THE EFFECT IS PROPORTIONAL TO THE WEIGHT OF THE BULLET AND THE SPEED OF THE EXPLOSION, SO IT HAPPENS TO ROUND BALLS, TOO, JUST NOT SO MUCH.

ALL THIS HAPPENS EVERY TIME WE FIRE THE GUN. I DON'T THINK SLICKNESS OF THE LUBE HAS A DIRECT EFFECT ON ACCURACY.

SPENCE
 
YEP, STILL UP AND KICKING, DUTCH. IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE THE OLD MLML DAYS, HASN'T IT? THANKS FOR THE KIND OFFER OF YOUR BOOK, BUT I ALREADY HAVE A COPY.

I UNDERSTAND YOUR THINKING ON THE "TOO SLICK" LUBE", BUT I THINK YOU ARE NOT CONSIDERING SOMETHING IMPORTANT, INERTIA...A BODY AT REST TENDS TO STAY AT REST. THAT BALL IS NOT FREE TO JUST SLIP UP THE BORE AS SOON AS THE PRESSURE STARTS RISING, IT HAPPENS TOO QUICKLY. CONSIDER THE FACT THAT HOLLOW-BASE CONICALS, WHICH ARE NOT TOUCHING THE BORE TIGHTLY, IF AT ALL... VERY LOW FRICTION, NO LUBE..., RESIST MOVING SO MUCH THAT THEY ARE DEFORMED, THE LEAD BECOMES PLASTIC AND FLOWS. THE PRESSURE GETS SO HIGH SO QUICKLY THAT THE SKIRTS FLARE AND THE WHOLE BODY IS SHORTENED. THE BACK END OF THE BULLET BEGINS MOVING BEFORE THE FRONT END, BECAUSE THE CONICAL IS LOCKED IN PLACE BY INERTIA.

THE EFFECT IS PROPORTIONAL TO THE WEIGHT OF THE BULLET AND THE SPEED OF THE EXPLOSION, SO IT HAPPENS TO ROUND BALLS, TOO, JUST NOT SO MUCH.

ALL THIS HAPPENS EVERY TIME WE FIRE THE GUN. I DON'T THINK SLICKNESS OF THE LUBE HAS A DIRECT EFFECT ON ACCURACY.

SPENCE

MY THINKING about too slick patch lube may be at major fault but it has been my attempt to explain why the less slick my patch lube is the tighter the groups become.
You know my method of getting water soluble oil and water mix to be lighter and lighter as you add water.
Well in my experimenting showed me the 5 to 1 mix gave me such a loose group I almost discontinued the effort. Being cheap bastard I couldn't waste my already prepared strips of diminishing oil I continued and the 6 to 1 was still loose then the 6 to one showed a definite tightening up. and the 7 to one was pretty damn good. and the 8 to one was a delight. 9 to ones difficult to load and I am sure the balls were flat faced so I got three of the five about as good as the 8 to one and two beginning to spread out..
The reason I had all those different mixes was because in the preparation of the strips we strip the stip of excess fluid. Everybody wouldn't do it the same as everyone else but all that person's strips would probably be very much alike.
A Person who stripped the excess fluid with a tighter grasp would remove more of the fluid than a person with a looser grasp. That is a variable I cannot control.
People reporting back had the hoped for results with different mixes.. Generally 10% were pleased with the 6 t0 mix.About 80% settled on the 7 to1 mix
And about 10% liked the 8 to 1 mix.
These figures are not exact just my perceived averages over a period of time.
When water soluble oil became scarce, A subscriber wrote me that he got the same results using Ballistic which proved to be the case.
Some recent experimenters report having good results using castor oil and alcohol. I don't think the castor oil blends with the alcohol in the same way as the earlier ingredients but they tell me that they prepare the mix in the same way but shake it violently and while the mix is still dispersed proceed with the process.
I am so impaired visually that I can no longer read most texts and my rifles are now in KC with my grandson whose main interest is sail boating. So I can no longer doanyexperimentations.
Not being able to read much of anything I am learning about the wonderful world of the illiterate. My daughter stumbled onto the "voiceover" ability of my computer so I select the text and the computer reads the printed material with some odd pronunciations but enough that there is a questionable section spoken I can explore the text with my 3 pound magnifying glass. So forgive any creative spelling and absent space between words in the above..
It is a delight to return to the BP world and I thank you for the opportunity. There is NOT ONE SINGLE ML PERSON IN THE ST LOUIS AREA I cantle to about my hoppy and the fun of coaching and experimentation.
Merry Christmas and hopefully an Adequate New Year.
Dutch
 
First of all, Merry Christmas to all. I have been under the weather myself lately.
But Dutch has something here that is true. I knew Bill Large long ago in Ohio, one of the best barrel makers ever. He told me a patched ball shooter would get " shot smooth" and lose accuracy.
Old timers would plug the hole and fill the bore with urine overnight to etch some friction back.
 
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