Crude oil stock finish?

I'm not one of those that builds or refinishes gun stocks so I'm pretty ignorant about the chemicals used for finishing these stocks.
I bought a rifle from tvm and their recommendation for treating the stock and outer parts of the rifle was to use nothing but F grade transmission fluid. I thought this strange but inquired on this board and several responses were positive on it's use. What would make this transmission fluid good for wood preservation and cleaning?

stank said:

I have been reading about the beeswax finish for stocks. Has anyone tried crude oil. Unrefined rite out of the ground? Our oil here in Pennsylvania is a clear amber color and my 95 year old aunt told me when she was a kid they would use crude to finish furniture. Any opinions?

Click to expand...

That's interesting about the amber color. Must be why ol' Mr. Drake and his Well really started something! Will be fun to see if anyone replies with having done that. Would it stay moist, or go dry after a time?

Whilst visiting a mid 18th century high status home turned into a local museum in Middle Pennsylvania in the early 2000's, I bought a soft cover book that had original formulae and documented information on 17th/18th/early 19th century furniture finishes. The author even commented on how it seemed there was no such thing as plagiarism when copying parts or all of earlier formulae into later treatises and not giving credit to the original authors when known.

In late 17th/early 18th century treatises, it talked about using shellac as what we might call a base coat on a furniture finish, but for a different purpose than mentioned above, for just filling the pores of the wood. Instead, it was also used before logwood or other period applied stains were used on furniture wood to "color" all the wood to the same matching color/finish. This was especially important when using expensive imported mahogany lumber, where not all the boards would match in color near the middle to end of the imported quantity of lumber. The Shellac base coat kept the stain from being sucked into the wood pores at different rates and thus to different shades of color after staining. IOW, the shellac base coat "evened out" how the period applied stains would be absorbed and color more evenly over different pieces of wood. I tried that tip when staining modern stocks with one or two handguards, to get both or all three pieces of wood to match, though I used Tru Oil instead of Shellac. I found I needed to sand the top surface again before applying the stain and then top finish coats, but it worked beautifully to get all three pieces of wood to match.

Bottom line, there is plenty of period documentation for using shellac (or something else) for a filler before applying the varnish over the top.

BTW, Birchwood Casey's Tru Oil is an Oil/Varnish finish that does not need to be prepared as done in the 18th century. Yes, there were stock finishes in the 18th century that came out as shiny as Tru Oil, but if one doesn't want that shiny of finish, it is no problem to use abrasive pads to "knock down" the shine and when buffed with a terrycloth rag or towel, you get a sort of "warm glow" looking finish.

Gus

mushka said:

I'm not one of those that builds or refinishes gun stocks so I'm pretty ignorant about the chemicals used for finishing these stocks.
I bought a rifle from tvm and their recommendation for treating the stock and outer parts of the rifle was to use nothing but F grade transmission fluid. I thought this strange but inquired on this board and several responses were positive on it's use. What would make this transmission fluid good for wood preservation and cleaning?

Click to expand...

I have a real tendency to doubt transmission fluid is a good thing to use for preservation and cleaning of a stock finish. After refinishing many hundreds of WWI and WWII stocks on Active Duty and on the side since, I know anything that has a petroleum base put on stocks is going to weaken/"soft rot" the wood over two or three decades of use. Sure the effects take time to really show up, but in one's own lifetime, why risk it when you are going to own the gun for that much time or more? Not for me, certainly.

Gus

Artificer said:

Whilst visiting a mid 18th century high status home turned into a local museum in Middle Pennsylvania in the early 2000's, I bought a soft cover book that had original formulae and documented information on 17th/18th/early 19th century furniture finishes. The author even commented on how it seemed there was no such thing as plagiarism when copying parts or all of earlier formulae into later treatises and not giving credit to the original authors when known.

In late 17th/early 18th century treatises, it talked about using shellac as what we might call a base coat on a furniture finish, but for a different purpose than mentioned above, for just filling the pores of the wood. Instead, it was also used before logwood or other period applied stains were used on furniture wood to "color" all the wood to the same matching color/finish. This was especially important when using expensive imported mahogany lumber, where not all the boards would match in color near the middle to end of the imported quantity of lumber. The Shellac base coat kept the stain from being sucked into the wood pores at different rates and thus to different shades of color after staining. IOW, the shellac base coat "evened out" how the period applied stains would be absorbed and color more evenly over different pieces of wood. I tried that tip when staining modern stocks with one or two handguards, to get both or all three pieces of wood to match, though I used Tru Oil instead of Shellac. I found I needed to sand the top surface again before applying the stain and then top finish coats, but it worked beautifully to get all three pieces of wood to match.

Bottom line, there is plenty of period documentation for using shellac (or something else) for a filler before applying the varnish over the top.

BTW, Birchwood Casey's Tru Oil is an Oil/Varnish finish that does not need to be prepared as done in the 18th century. Yes, there were stock finishes in the 18th century that came out as shiny as Tru Oil, but if one doesn't want that shiny of finish, it is no problem to use abrasive pads to "knock down" the shine and when buffed with a terrycloth rag or towel, you get a sort of "warm glow" looking finish.

Gus

Click to expand...

Interesting. I like Lin- Speed finish, which I used recently on a repro musket stock. Thanks.

springfield art said:

Interesting. I like Lin- Speed finish, which I used recently on a repro musket stock. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Hi Art,

You may be interested to know Lin Speed was the finish used by Marine Corps Armorers when they built/re-built wood stocked Sniper and NM Rifles, after it came out many years ago. However, once Tru Oil came out, we stopped using Lin Speed and went over exclusively to Tru Oil.

Having mentioned that, Lin Speed is a finish based on Linseed Oil and either has driers in it and/or is polymerized to a degree. Might even be what was described as "Kettle Boiled" Oil in the last half of the 19th century. Not really sure which it actually is, but it is certainly better than Raw or even common BLO, though not nearly as good as Tru Oil.

Gus

Artificer said:

Hi Art,

You may be interested to know Lin Speed was the finish used by Marine Corps Armorers when they built/re-built wood stocked Sniper and NM Rifles, after it came out many years ago. However, once Tru Oil came out, we stopped using Lin Speed and went over exclusively to Tru Oil.

Having mentioned that, Lin Speed is a finish based on Linseed Oil and either has driers in it and/or is polymerized to a degree. Might even be what was described as "Kettle Boiled" Oil in the last half of the 19th century. Not really sure which it actually is, but it is certainly better than Raw or even common BLO, though not nearly as good as Tru Oil.

Gus

Click to expand...

Wow, I hadn't thought about LinSpeed in years! I've used it before, but like the Marines, once I discovered TruOil, my can of LinSpeed sat unused until I finally tossed it. As you suggested, I think it was linseed oil with dryers added. It worked, but required a lot more coats to build up a decent finish. I could never get it to match a TruOil finish. I think because it lacked the varnish.

When I checked out this thread, I never anticipated it would lead to this walk down memory lane, lol!

Artificer said:

Hi Art,

You may be interested to know Lin Speed was the finish used by Marine Corps Armorers when they built/re-built wood stocked Sniper and NM Rifles, after it came out many years ago. However, once Tru Oil came out, we stopped using Lin Speed and went over exclusively to Tru Oil.

Having mentioned that, Lin Speed is a finish based on Linseed Oil and either has driers in it and/or is polymerized to a degree. Might even be what was described as "Kettle Boiled" Oil in the last half of the 19th century. Not really sure which it actually is, but it is certainly better than Raw or even common BLO, though not nearly as good as Tru Oil.

Gus

Click to expand...

Thanks, Gus. I refinished a repro Brown Bess using Lin Speed. Something about it, this is very subjective, just seemed to me personally what I wanted. The Tru Oil is fine, I'm sure, but seems a little too "modern" or something, just very subjective, again. I'm glad to read that Lin Speed was used by Armorers, I had no idea! Just another great benefit from using this site, which seems to have many experienced muzzleloaders on site. Thanks!

springfield art said:

Thanks, Gus. I refinished a repro Brown Bess using Lin Speed. Something about it, this is very subjective, just seemed to me personally what I wanted. The Tru Oil is fine, I'm sure, but seems a little too "modern" or something, just very subjective, again. I'm glad to read that Lin Speed was used by Armorers, I had no idea! Just another great benefit from using this site, which seems to have many experienced muzzleloaders on site. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Hi Art,

In the early 2,000's, I refinished my Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine, that I had shattered the wrist on many years before. It sat for too long while I went from 18th century to 19th century reenacting and before I got back into the 18th century reenacting in the very late 1990's.

Probably like you, I wanted the refinish to look "correct" for the period, so I did more additional study on period finishes above what I had done before.

British Captain and Later Major Cuthbertson’s System for the Complete Interior Management and Oeconomy of a Battalion of Infantry, circa 1768/76/79, states the following on staining and finishing the Firelocks or Brown Bess Muskets. Note: I emboldened and underlined some for emphasis:

"By going to some little expense, it will not be difficult to keep the stocks of the firelock to one uniform colour; by staining them either black, red or yellow; and then by laying on a layer of varnish, to preserve them always in a glossy, shining condition."

https://books.google.com/books?id=1SxEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA89&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

Since Cutherbertson's "System" was so popular in the 18th century British Army, we can be assured the advice could have been or more likely was probably followed by many of the British Regiments. That means many of us today might be very surprised, if we could see Brown Bess muskets in use by the British Army during the period.

Like you, I did not want that "glossy" of a finish that Tru Oil gives, even though it would be correct for the period. So I put three coats of Tru Oil on over the stain I used and then abraded the finish with abrasive pads that are supposed to be the equivalent of OOO Steel Wool and hard/hand buffed it with a Terrycloth rag. That turned the surface finish into a lovely "warm glow," that was very appealing.

Gus

Great info! My Pedersoli has a 'glossy, shining condition' finish, which would be correct! My (quality) gone-over Indian Bess has a nice warm satiny finish now, but good to read the period-correct reference. Thanks so much! Never heard toe black red of yellow quote; I will pass along this information, too.

Typo' should read, never heard of the black, red, or yellow, quote. Typed too fast!

springfield art said:

Great info! My Pedersoli has a 'glossy, shining condition' finish, which would be correct! My (quality) gone-over Indian Bess has a nice warm satiny finish now, but good to read the period-correct reference. Thanks so much! Never heard toe black red of yellow quote; I will pass along this information, too.

Click to expand...

Hi Art,

It didn't surprise me the British Army used varnish as a or the preferred gun stock finish, since it remains to this day one of the best weather repellant finishes. It didn't surprise me too much to find they could or did stain stocks to match, considering how the British Army went for uniformity so strongly even then, but I was surprised to find period documentation for it.

Glad you found the information useful.

Gus

Old English Scratch Remover is a grocery store product that is essentially asphaltum and a petroleum dillutent, essentially just "crude oil". Many other furniture finishing products use asphaltum as a red-brown stain. Asphaltum is chemically stable (it is many millions of years old) and resistant to sunlight.

Perhaps other products like aqua fortis and iron pigments were more readily available before the advent of petroleum as a fuel and substitute for whale oil.

Hi,
Thanks Gus for bringing a lot of documentation to bare. All one need do is look at almost any British Brown Bess musket in a museum and notice the shiny finish. I've restored some short land pattern Besses and it is pretty clear the old finish is a varnish. Anyone who thinks they just coated them with linseed oil is badly misinformed. I also suspect the varnish was thick to fill the grain quickly. Moreover, a thick varnish will smooth over tool marks quickly as well. When reading Cuthbertson, folks should keep in mind that muskets were often retrofitted (nose caps, nose bands, steel rammers, etc) by the regimental armorer. I think Cuthbertson's comments suggest regimental armorers also may have colored muskets with tinted varnish. I've often visited the big collection of muskets at Fort Ticonderoga (it is one of my standard resources when beginning research on a musket I am going to build) and there are muskets that clearly show a colored varnish on top but also many others that were either not stained or stained under the finish. Also, I suspect much depended on if a gun was war emergency production and issued in a hurry.

dave

Oldbear63 said:

Old English Scratch Remover is a grocery store product that is essentially asphaltum and a petroleum dillutent, essentially just "crude oil". Many other furniture finishing products use asphaltum as a red-brown stain. Asphaltum is chemically stable (it is many millions of years old) and resistant to sunlight.

Perhaps other products like aqua fortis and iron pigments were more readily available before the advent of petroleum as a fuel and substitute for whale oil.

Click to expand...

Good info! Never knew that, another example of informative stuff I learn on this site from muzzleloaders' collected knowledge. Thanks!

dave_person said:

When reading Cuthbertson, folks should keep in mind that muskets were often retrofitted (nose caps, nose bands, steel rammers, etc) by the regimental armorer. I think Cuthbertson's comments suggest regimental armorers also may have colored muskets with tinted varnish. I've often visited the big collection of muskets at Fort Ticonderoga (it is one of my standard resources when beginning research on a musket I am going to build) and there are muskets that clearly show a colored varnish on top but also many others that were either not stained or stained under the finish. Also, I suspect much depended on if a gun was war emergency production and issued in a hurry.

dave

Click to expand...

Hi Dave,

ALWAYS glad when you chime in on subject!

Some of the Muskets in the collection of Colonial Williamsburg came directly from Flixton Hall in Suffolk, UK when they were purchased in the 1950's. They are as close to "factory new" as we probably will ever see, because they were mounted on the walls as military trophies shortly after they were made and hung there for around 200 years. I am going to ask Eric Goldstein the next time I see him, what the finish was on those muskets is. There is little doubt in my mind they were finished in some kind of varnish.

Captain/Major Cuthbertson served in the British 5th Regiment during the Seven Years/French and Indian War on the Continent. They were involved in a raid on Cherbourg, France and some battles in Hanover in the Germanic States near the end of the War. At the close of the war, they went into Peace Time Garrison in Ireland. Cuthbertson's Treatise was published for the first time in 1768, just a few years after they were back in Peace Time Garrison in Ireland.

Since Cuthbertson's Regiment served on the Continent, they received the best Arms that British Ordnance had. This meant they had Steel Rammer Muskets and his advice about carefully inspecting New Arms, including the advice to very carefully inspect those Steel Rammers prior to accepting the Arms, comes in no little part from the fact there was a large problem with some to many Steel Rammers not having been hardened and tempered correctly. (Sorry about going off on a bit of a tangent, but just couldn't pass up the chance to note this.)

Not only do I agree with Dave that Regimental Artificers/Armorers could have used tinted varnish to make the muskets stocks more of one uniform colour; I think it important to note the Colonel commanding each Regiment would have ordered how the stocks were to be stained and further finished after they received them from British Ordnance, but also each Colonel paid for it out of the Regimental funds or his personal funds. IOW, it was up to the Regimental Commanders and not British Ordnance. So that leaves open the possibility some stocks were or were not stained after the Regiments received them, but Regimental Artificers/Armorers would have been tasked in "laying on a coat of varnish"when needed, on active service. Varnishes "cooked up" by the Regimental Artificers "in the field" probably were of a bit different colour than the varnish used by British Ordnance when the Arms were initially "stocked up" or assembled. That would explain other colour differences.

Gus

Hi Gus,
I always think the same about you. I am always glad when you chime in. Emergency war production is also something to remember. I have Goldstein's book on the Flixten Hall collection and their value showing what the warrant specified guns must have looked like. It must have pained the British to contract with Liege for muskets and pained the British high command to hire German mercenaries, despite the fact that they acquired some brilliant soldiers like Baron von Riedesel.

dave

Artificer said:

I have a real tendency to doubt transmission fluid is a good thing to use for preservation and cleaning of a stock finish. After refinishing many hundreds of WWI and WWII stocks on Active Duty and on the side since, I know anything that has a petroleum base put on stocks is going to weaken/"soft rot" the wood over two or three decades of use. Sure the effects take time to really show up, but in one's own lifetime, why risk it when you are going to own the gun for that much time or more? Not for me, certainly.

Gus

Click to expand...

I am old enough to remember when 3 in 1 oil was used by a lot of people to clean an oil their double barrel shot guns, after which they were stood up in the corner of the bedroom closet. After many years of this the oil would soak into the wood around the action and when they were taken apart the wood would be extremely soft.

bud in pa said:

I am old enough to remember when 3 in 1 oil was used by a lot of people to clean an oil their double barrel shot guns, after which they were stood up in the corner of the bedroom closet. After many years of this the oil would soak into the wood around the action and when they were taken apart the wood would be extremely soft.

Click to expand...

That would be true! Old timers have seen this.

Makes me cringe whenever people tell me they rub the whole stock down with oil....