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Brown bess for identification please

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Colm Byrne

32 Cal
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
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Thanks for membership of this great group, can anyone help me identify the brown bess in the opening post please the makers mark appears to have been tampered with and I have yet to find one with the wire bands around the barrel so I am hoping to get some advice from opinions on here.
 

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My Scientific Wild Arsed Guess [SWAG] is that is an African trade gun. The Africans liked the Bess, and would go for Bess-ish looking guns.
The pan on the lock is all wrong.
The marking on the lock for the origin of the maker is a poor stamping, and there is no additional engraving.
Then you have the bands, which I thought were repairs.
There is space left on the barrel for a bayonet, but it's not enough to actually fit a bayonet.
The side plate is right for a 3rd model but it doesn't fit, by virtue of the location of the lock screws.

LD
 
My Scientific Wild Arsed Guess [SWAG] is that is an African trade gun. The Africans liked the Bess, and would go for Bess-ish looking guns.
The pan on the lock is all wrong.
The marking on the lock for the origin of the maker is a poor stamping, and there is no additional engraving.
Then you have the bands, which I thought were repairs.
There is space left on the barrel for a bayonet, but it's not enough to actually fit a bayonet.
The side plate is right for a 3rd model but it doesn't fit, by virtue of the location of the lock screws.

LD
Thanks very much for this information I really appreciate it, It would be nice if it was an African trade piece, this did not cross my mind, although Nepal had, I was thinking that the original stamping was removed for some reason to prevent the maker from being identified, I note with interest your observations about the barrel which only measures 30 inches the total gun size is 46 inches, the butt stock furnish is not brass, and the gun seems to have been very well used with no cleaning. I would be delighted to hear any more opinions on it, if anyone would like to add anything.
 

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Hi,
First off, it is not a brown Bess. It looks like something cobbled together using some old Bess parts. It might be some indigenous product using old parts available within the 19th century British sphere of influence.

dave
 
Hi,
First off, it is not a brown Bess. It looks like something cobbled together using some old Bess parts. It might be some indigenous product using old parts available within the 19th century British sphere of influence.

dave
Hello Many thanks Dave, I am grateful for this input!! I am based in Ireland where i bought it, It is possible it was put together over here many years ago as well, probably assembled by a few different craftsmen, could be a rebel put together, or maybe some lord had it privately made and used it for hunting, it has been fired hundreds of times by the looks of it, and is still in working order, but the frizzen is a bit worn out, this section in the photo where the Barrel gets the powder now has a brass/copper color, from either a build up of residue, or to hide a proof mark, but other areas of the steel on it are cleaning up quite nice, one more point to note is that another touch has been added to widen the area. All further opinions very welcome.
 

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Hi Colm,
This is really hard to figure out. I believe the markings stamped over on the lock may be "TOWER". The lock plate could be from a British musket but the pan was replaced. I think a new touch hole was drilled for the pan and the old one is further back. I cannot tell from the photos but is the pan attached to the barrel rather than a part of the lock? I ask because I wonder if the copper colored metal at the breech is brazing from attaching the pan. It could also be a dodgy repair to the barrel. Could the gun have been used during one of the Irish conflicts with the British? Perhaps it was cobbled together to arm the Irish resisters and Hence, the markings removed?

dave
 
Hi Dave again I thank you for your interest, the pan is attached to the lock I tried to get clear photos of underneath the pan and above, I put it into half cock to try allow a better image but it is not easy to get good shots on these items due to color and lighting in the nooks and crannies, I do see one more tiny braze of copper/brass I hope it is visible to you on the last photo, I would say that if someone took a drill to do a new touch hole they might also have taken the proof mark out at that stage as well I would tend to side with you that TOWER might be the removed letters
 

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Hi Dave again I thank you for your interest, the pan is attached to the lock I tried to get clear photos of underneath the pan and above, I put it into half cock to try allow a better image but it is not easy to get good shots on these items due to color and lighting in the nooks and crannies, I do see one more tiny braze of copper/brass I hope it is visible to you on the last photo, I would say that if someone took a drill to do a new touch hole they might also have taken the proof mark out at that stage as well I would tend to side with you that TOWER might be the removed letters

This is a look at the pan with the half cocked position on the hammer
 

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Hi,
I don't think so, Colm. I doubt the gun would be considered safe for any reenactment as it is now. Moreover, it does not recreate any historically significant pattern or style of gun other than a musket crudely made from old parts. It could be a gun repaired or cobbled together in one of Britain's colonies or trading partners, even one made in an emergency to arm some uprising.

dave
 
Cheers Dave I am very grateful to you for all input, I am not sure if you read this thread but one post sticks out,
I will copy the txt here I was thinking that my gun might be Belgium made Here is the thread it regards another gun not the same as mine only that it is Belgian made.
What I think is that my gun was made for reenactments onlythe txt from the post below is from amforum member regarding another Belgian gun

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/belgium-flintlock-musket.93144/page-2


this has been proofed as a fully functional black powder weapon , so its not junk , it has value but its NOT like the early family weapons that are now big dollar items , its a early but common example off trading off a name , and i think the market at the time was big in functional replica weapons , many social organisations had re-enactments as part of their social calendar in the US UK and Australia at the tern of the century , masons , catholics , prodestants . australian nationalists , southern US folks, all the "minute man " type groups .. all had re-enactments and the associated "armouries" back then .. so lots where made , quality was a issue and belgium had a good name and they where not as expencive as the english made .. ( or US made .. the US was pushing new weapons around then ;) )
 
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I found this marking the number 30 down the end of the barrel so i must assume it is a Belgian gun as I seen one similar with the same number on another forum which was also proofed as being made in Belgium
 

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