So I been thinking...

So I been thinking...


There are areas I hunt where deer seem to hang out, that are so brushy the farthest shot I’m likely to get in there is maybe 30yds. Seems to me a muzzleloader would be a great brush gun, ‘cept for the weight and length. So my DIY nature suggested to my practical nature to watch for a cheap one, or parts I can use to make one, including a bbl I can cut down. Question is the practical limits of a short bbl. I assume a shorter bbl would mean shorter burn time, and projectile acceleration time depending on caliber and bbl length. And I wouldn’t want to settle on a bbl length that I couldn’t develop reasonable velocities with. I’m thinking 16”-20”or so. I don’t think it would be an issue, but anyone have any experience with anything like that. One of the reasons I got into black smithing was to someday build my own rifle from used car parts... someday. Hmm. Wouldn’t necessarily have to be rifled for that matter either... I’m thinking .54cal. ‘cause that’s the moulds I already have.

I've never had any more of an issue with a full length long rifle than with a short modern gun in thick brush. Thick brush is a pain regardless. I don't see any advantage to making the gun so short one has to question it's ballistic performance.

I second that thought.

You could make a long barreled pistol. I find a muzzleloader with a 30” barrel feels very short as most of mine have barrels that are 42-44”.

I’m assuming in brush that thick that you are stand hunting as it would seem you’re not going to walk up on anything.

I modified a rifle like you are talking about, but not for hunting purposes. I took an old CVA Kentucky rifle (45 caliber) and cut the barrel down to 20". Filed a new dovetail for a front sight, reshaped the stock, and moved the ramrod thimble, and of course, shortened the ram rod. I did this for our youth group at our club. Most of the kids just could not handle the weight of a long rifle, and this filled the bill perfectly. With light loads the kids ring the gongs out to 40 yards pretty well, and they love the smoke. I sometimes bring the gun to rendezvous and call it my "Blanket Gun".

Many original European hunting guns/rifles had short barrels;
24" and less was very common, and did the job very well indeed. These often used on wild boar where a compromise in efficiency would not be welcome.
For horseback use, a good few were made with Much shorter barrels; .

No clue where I got these photos, otherwise I'd give credit.

Pukka Bundook said:

Many original European hunting guns/rifles had short barrels;

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Pukka, when I read TB54's post, an "old world" Jaeger was my very first thought! You beat me to it.

I think Rich's idea about a long-barreled pistol is a good one as well. I currently have a Chambers pistol kit on the bench that has a 13" swamped 54 cal barrel that would certainly be effective enough on deer at close ranges.

https://www.flintlocks.com/pistols.htm

I like the idea of a long barreled pistol, but I think any advantage in the brush would be nil to just using a hawken or kentucky with a 33” or so barrel. By the time you stretch out with both hands on the piece to shoot, your total length extended would likely be more with the pistol.

I like the idea of a short barreled rifle. I was hunting in thick brush this morning and was thinking about making a carbine length next build. My unmentionable '94 has a 20" barrel and its one of the nicest handling rifles I own. Also, from a historical perspective, my 1859 Sharps carbine has just about the same dimensions as the '94. I would not worry much about lost ballistics. My .54 Lyman Plains pistol only has a 10" barrel but its diameter is the same as their rifle and I safely shoot 80 grains FF in it with great effect. I'm thinking a flinter with an 18" - 20" barrel would make a nice brush or tree stand gun.

Sure enjoyed my little buggy gun, created due to a ringed barrel. I just cut off the bad portion, and was left with about 19" of good tube. Trimmed down the fore-stock and it was perfect for use in cramped hunting space such as brush.

You might be able to scrounge up a damaged 28 gauge barrel if a smooth bore is acceptable; or a .54 rifle, and work from there.
If I recall correctly, there was once a 19th century U S cavalry carbine which was essentially a large .58 pistol with an attached butt-stock. Dixie Gun Works carried a repro back in the 70s and 80s.

(I happen think using a butt stock is important; but then I'm not a very good pistolero when it comes to hunting game.)

Tom A Hawk,

I'm quite sure straight shooting is much easier to accomplish with a short carbine than a long pistol. Whip it into your shoulder, ( and if it fits), you're on the money! Not so easy with a pistol..

I THINK that the tendency to make long rifles here in America was just style. Colonist saw how good a ride could shoot but had used so many guns for so long with three and a half to five foot barrels that’s what they wanted and the customer is always right.
I’m caught up in that, I just don’t like short guns I hunt in the ozarks, an old Indian word for tangled brush, but a 42” barrel has never caused me trouble.

The eBay has an investarms .50 that is 18” including the breechplug.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Powd...iber-18-Barrel-W-Hook-Breech-151/192755235606

I’ve thought about making something out of this and it’s been listed for quite some time... maybe make an offer?

Pukka Bundook said:

Tom A Hawk,

I'm quite sure straight shooting is much easier to accomplish with a short carbine than a long pistol. Whip it into your shoulder, ( and if it fits), you're on the money! Not so easy with a pistol..

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You're right. Its not as easy as with a shoulder fired weapon. However, that doesn't mean it can't be done. A belt gun is a lot easier to carry and frees both hands for navigating through the woods and managing the game recovery. I have taken nine whitetails and one turkey with a handgun. One trick is to shoot it the same as you would a long gun by concentrating on sight alignment and trigger control. Also, whenever possible I have made use of any available tree or limb as a rest.

tenngun said:

I THINK that the tendency to make long rifles here in America was just style. Colonists saw how good a ride could shoot but had used so many guns for so long with three and a half to five-foot barrels that’s what they wanted and the customer is always right.
I’m caught up in that, I just don’t like short guns I hunt in the Ozarks, an old Indian word for tangled brush, but a 42” barrel has never caused me trouble.

Click to expand...

Maybe in part. But, there was science behind that. From a chemical standpoint, black powder burns slowly, especially compared to modern smokeless powder. A Jaeger rifle with a short barrel and large bore got it's "punch" from a heavy powder charge and heavy ball. A longrifle got similar results because the powder was more fully burned since it was contained in the barrel longer, allowing greater velocity and muzzle energy.

SingleMalt said:

Maybe in part. But, there was science behind that. From a chemical standpoint, black powder burns slowly, especially compared to modern smokeless powder. A Jaeger rifle with a short barrel and large bore got it's "punch" from a heavy powder charge and heavy ball. A longrifle got similar results because the powder was more fully burned since it was contained in the barrel longer, allowing greater velocity and muzzle energy.

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....and let's not forget a longer sight radius.

T/C Renegade .54 has a 26" barrel. I would think that should be short enough. I got rid of mine because I wanted a longer one.

Single Malt,

The average Jaeger indeed fired a relatively heavy ball, But, with a rather light charge of powder.
Most had one turn in the barrel length, so we are looking at say one turn in 24" .
This is too fast for a heavy charge, and modern trials have found these rifles shoot very well indeed with the Light charges they were designed for.

Best,
R.

Don't forget that the dominant military rifle(s) of the period were the Brown Bess, and Charleville. Both had fairly long barrels, and were used in the Colonial Militia. Sp fo;ks were familiar with them. It's somewhat natural that private civilian weapons would follow suit.

Smoothbore fowling pieces are longer as well, and I suspect that if a man had just 1 gun it would be a smoothie, which could be pressed to be used as a smooth rifle. At the short to intermediate ranges of eastern woodlands hunting, that would be accurate enough at those distances for a larger target like a deer or moose.

So here is a flintlock, which of course you could have a copy made in caplock. It only has a 12" barrel. One of the ways to make up for shorter barrels is to toss a heavier projectile. The one in the video I think is too short for most applications. This is a rifled .62..., a rifled 20 gauge.



The Thompson Center White Mountain Carbine has a 22" barrel. In .54 caliber I think you would like very much. It should be a 1:48 twist, and would do fine with patched round ball, especially out to fifty yards or less.

They are discontinued, so you will need to hunt up a used one. IF..., you can't find one larger than .50 caliber, be careful as they made some of those with a fast twist barrel of 1:28, and you don't want that one for round ball.




LD