Issues... and I'm upset !!!

A piece of guitar string is excellent for cleaning the flash channel. The wound A or D string are my faves. It'll bend into the flash channel and ream it clean nicely. The thin inner string makes a great nipple pick too!
I've cleared many misfires for people by doing this and then trickling in some 4f from a friendly flinter.

Like the smooth one says.

I suggest losing the olive oil altogether except for sparing use as patch lube if it's your preference.

Something that you have referenced several times is the use of hot water to clean and letting the hot barrel dry. That undoubtedly gets the barrel clean but it also forms fine flash rust as it drys. The extreme hot water cleaning method seems to go back to the TC owner's manual of the early '70's. Probably from other sources as well. Cleaning with just warm or even cold water is adequate.

That said, I don't think it's part of the failure to fire problem.

Protecting the barrel has to do with thorough cleaning/removal of fouling and thorough drying after cleaning. Sloshing some alcohol around in the barrel will displace any remaining water. Once the alcohol evaporates a very very thin oil applied very sparingly will be adequate.

I suggest you get a can of break cleaner and shoot a good bit of it into the barrel with the nipple plugged. Then clean as you normally do but use water that you can immerse your hand into without discomfort.

Replace the nipple. You mentioned using a nipple pick. There should never be a need for a nipple pick when it's all functioning properly. Each firing of the gun clears the nipple. One of the vented nipples will clear even more reliably.

Carbon 6 said:

I knew the word "designed" would be misinterpreted. I wondered who would squawk first. Think about it, it will come to you.

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Well, since Pyrodex was developed *after* these guns were designed, you are technically correct.

However Pyrodex was designed to replace black powder on a volume basis, so therefore Pyrodex was designed to be used in a CVA with their chambered interlocking breech design.
(Black powder works better.) Now lets get back to why the OP's breech is getting all gunked up after 2 shots.

Grenadier1758 said:

However Pyrodex was designed to replace black powder on a volume basis, so therefore Pyrodex was designed to be used in a CVA with their chambered interlocking breech design.
(Black powder works better.) Now lets get back to why the OP's breech is getting all gunked up after 2 shots.

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Well, perhaps in function. I bought a can of Pyrodex RS and found it to be fairly coarse, much more so than the Triple 7 FFG I'm now using. I suspect that coarseness prevents it from adequately filling the breech and properly igniting, especially if fouling builds up.

JB67 said:

Well, perhaps in function. I bought a can of Pyrodex RS and found it to be fairly coarse, much more so than the Triple 7 FFG I'm now using. I suspect that coarseness prevents it from adequately filling the breech and properly igniting, especially if fouling builds up.

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Had RS and got periodic ignition hesitation. Switched to P and never had repeat. The P is fff rated. RS is more ff.

I have at least a DZ MLs most CVA or same type. I shoot Pyrodex RS and some is over 20 years old and I don't have the problems mentioned in any of my guns. Like stated get a new nipple. A cheap easy way to start and its always good to have extra nipples.

JB67 said:

Well, since Pyrodex was developed *after* these guns were designed, you are technically correct.

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Yep, and look at the muzzleloaders designed after Pyrodex was invented. They were designed to specifically address the ignition issues with substitutes.

I do believe uncle mikes hot shot nipple was designed for better ignition when using pyrodex. Not all nipples are created the achieve the same results

By the way, if you fellers think pyrodex is bulky... Check out Alliant Black MZ. Stuff is super bulky, kitty litter bulky and shoots just fine out of all of my traditions and cva sidelocks.

bang said:

Had RS and got periodic ignition hesitation. Switched to P and never had repeat. The P is fff rated. RS is more ff.

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And that is a good reference point for what can be the problem with this type of breech. I don't think it is so much the design as it is the execution of the design. It comes down to the opening in the front of the breech plug. It is often too small to accommodate larger powder granulations. Especially if you add in some persistent fouling .

Pedersoli has used this design extensively and has had problems with it that are directly related to the size of the opening in the breech face. So, it's the execution of the design. The europeans have used this ignition system for right around 200 years. It's a robust design and, IMO, safer and more sound than tapping into the side of a relatively thin barrel wall.

There are many hooked breech flinters in use that are built using the same principal and they ignite reliably. Once again, it's the size of the plug face opening that allows the powder to drop into the bottom of the opening (not saying that Pyrodex ignites easily in a flinter).

If this is the problem, it's not an easy fix. It would require the removal of the drum and then the breech plug and the replacement with a new plug with the opening in the face larger and then the tapping in of a new drum. Replacing the original parts in the correct alignment would be very tricky.

Maybe it would work to go in through the muzzle with a reamer on a long rod and ream it out larger?

LOL its not the breech design, its the nipple and how it delivers the flash to the powder. They said the hot shot was designed for pyrodex but IMO it was a failure due to them putting those 2 tiny vent holes on top of the nipple which allows the cap flash to escape.

The flash channel to flash hole transition plays a HUGE part is flow smoothly the flash is transferred to the flash hole and into the powder. If its squared or rounded off, it causes it to bounce back and kind of just "plug" up.

I believe Black MZ was discontinued.

However I'm kinda anxious to see if the American Pioneer stuff has any real use for dedicated percussion target rifles. They "claim" you need no lube and shouldn't use any , making it maybe ideal for "bullet" rifles. They also claim standard caps will ignite it. Guy on YouTube fires it in a Flintlock.

they claim lots of things about it but non of which i have found to be true other than super easy clean up and easy to ignite. Shoot it over a chronograph and its 100FPS slower than pyrodex. #11 caps to ignite it easily with the right nipple.

I seem to remember some one here that said they started removing the amount, at least a good bit of what extended into the barrel on replacement drums. Or there where some in that condition available. Although as long as the threaded end is clipped to face charge there shouldn't be much issue.

As far as Pyrodex RS and periodic hesitation I have no explanation why. It happened in 50 and 45 caliber rifles. All I know is when I switched to P it stopped. I was using the RS in revolvers too but it showed no ignition issues. Now I use P in everything and have been for at least 20 years with no issues. Granted I started using it due to it being readily available after so many stopped carrying black powder because of storage regulations. Now at at least one place I shop I've seen 777 and goex but st this point I just don't have any viable reason to switch.

Changed to a new musket nipple, new rws musket caps, swiss 3f black powder. Runs like a top!

Too bad its getting hard to find black powder, but for now its great. Im seeing less fouling, not a greasy film left, just everything is better. Even getting off the old primer caps is easier.

Im going to try using bear grease now too, wish me luck!

Briengolis said:

Changed to a new musket nipple, new rws musket caps, swiss 3f black powder. Runs like a top!

Too bad its getting hard to find black powder, but for now its great. Im seeing less fouling, not a greasy film left, just everything is better. Even getting off the old primer caps is easier.

Im going to try using bear grease now too, wish me luck!

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Good news but what is a top and what does it run like ?

This is one of the reasons I prefer flint, just my 2 cents.

Briengolis said:

Changed to a new musket nipple, new rws musket caps, swiss 3f black powder. Runs like a top!

Too bad its getting hard to find black powder, but for now its great. Im seeing less fouling, not a greasy film left, just everything is better. Even getting off the old primer caps is easier.

Im going to try using bear grease now too, wish me luck!

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You can order it direct to your door- Graf & Son or Powder Valley are reliable.

Stantheman86 said:

Maybe even check out one of those 209 Shotgun Primer adapter nipples.

I usually hate them but I used one of the Mag-Spark adapters on a T/C New Englander to burn up some 777. Instant ignition every time, just very slow to recap and it gets gummy quick. Great for hunting , terrible for range shooting but testers in magazines have set off BlackHorn 209 in a Pedersoli side lock with a 209 nipple.

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209 primers are specifically prohibited during the muzzleloader seasons in Idaho.

So are inline black powder arms, scopes, ("peep" sights are allowed) and anything electronic attached to the rifle.

Trijicon radioactive self glowing sights are also a "no-no" according to the regulations.
Cry'n shame that.
I would have liked one of those front sights on my sidelock.

Sabots are also specifically prohibited. (not a problem for me, I shoot a .54 caliber. The sabboted pistol bullets weigh less than a .530 pure lead round ball. Why would I desire a smaller, lighter projectile when going after Elk, Moose, or a deer?) I like big heavy projectiles for big game.