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Anyone shooting old time flintlocks such as M1795, Brown Bess etc,...

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fourbore

40 Cal
Joined
Oct 22, 2019
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Location
New England
I am considering the purchase of a revolutionary war to 1812 time period rifle(military musket). An origional gun. I want to shoot it occasionally. I have been advised by a friend that I would be better off with a modern reproduction. FWIW, He has less experience than me. By better, he means the old flinters will not shoot. If he is right, I may take a pass on the whole idea. I think the concern, beyond weak springs or breakage is the frizzen is not hard all the way through and will not spark. Or need some hardening that requires expertise or devalue the gun. I see repro frizzen are available, perhaps one could be swapped out for shooting. I am not afraid to take a chance, as long as there is a chance.

This is uncharted territory for me. I appreciate any input. Links, books, tricks, tips,. ...
 
fourbore: Your friend has given you good advice. While many of us do (or did) shoot original flintlock muskets, most of us have retired the originals in favor of modern reproductions. When I began shooting, there were no reproduction muskets, so it was shoot an original or nothing. Even with good care, originals accumulate wear and damage. Springs break, screws get worn or buggered and the stock will get dented and scratched. Reproductions have the advantage of modern metallurgy, availability of spare parts, and low cost.
 
My unit once went to Puerto Rico, and could not bring the muskets on the plane, nor powder, but the museum where we appeared furnished original muskets for use. o_O


By better, he means the old flinters will not shoot. If he is right, …, beyond weak springs or breakage is the frizzen is not hard all the way through and will not spark. Or need some hardening that requires expertise or devalue the gun.

He's right, but the frizzens and such on the old guns were state-of-the-art back in their day, so they normally will shoot, and you have more of a chance that a repro will have a sparking problem than an original musket (imho). He's right that it's much less risk to shoot the repro.....


So..., a curator mentions, it's nice to have an original. Maybe fire it once a year, one time, on the 4th of July, but really as time continues the scarcity of a functioning original musket only increases. The parts, are not interchangeable, not really until just before the ACW, and then sometimes not. For example, you see a lot of these 3rd model or Nepalese Bess for sale with some coming as parts kits with modern stocks for restocking. They cost about as much as a repro Italian Bess, but when the parts break or wear out, you need to have a replacement made from scratch, or an original pre-made blank fitted. :confused:

You might like to have both, and display them together, and thus guests can see how the "ancestor" lines up with the "repro", and you can shoot the repro to your heart's content....

LD
 
I am thinking 20 shots a year over two days. Not a lot of shooting. It sounds like the old guns will work?
They may still give a spark?

You must be older than me, or my memory is fading. I started shooting black powder in the late 1960's (post 68) becasue I was not old enough (not 18) to buy a real gun. I was mail ordering antiques. I also had a Dixie Gun catalog. I though they had reproductions, or kits. I got a 36 Navy revolver from them. No flint locks for me at that time. I am getting back to my roots a little bit these days.

I see another post. Yes, if I get the bug bad enough, two maybe the best of both worlds.
 
The guy on the Murphy's Muskets YouTube channel shoots an original Eli Whitney .69 Flint musket. It lights off faster than most caplocks.

That said , a repro is made to shoot and you can do whatever you want with it and not worry about damaging a piece of history.

20 shots a year? I put like 50 a week through some of mine, hence my need for a repro.
 
I came to this forum wanting to shoot my all original 1833 flintlock Hall rifle a family hand me down nearly everyone advised against shooting something so old. I did find folks on You-tube shooting a original Hall rifle and they did not blow it up , that said I asked myself how would I react if I blew open a hole or severely damaged my Hall rifle my answer it would not be a take it on the chops moment it would be a really really sad blunder , that said there is no need imop to shoot these old guns when there are so many nice reproductions available . I bought a Lyman Great Plains Rifle aka Hawken rifle kit for my introduction to black powder shooting :) .
 
I agree with you Jackman. If you damage your Hall, you have damaged a piece of our history and although it might be fixed, it will never be the same.
Reproduction guns on the other hand are easily replaced and have no significant historical value.

That said, I must admit that I've shot a little Belgin made percussion pistol I have. It has no real historical value like a Hall would have and I decided that I would shoot it once, just to be able to say that I shot it.
Pistol2.jpg


I did use a small powder load to keep the barrel pressures down and it fired, just like it was supposed to. :)
 
I started shooting ml in early 70s my first ml at sixteen. And bought some ml books. I don’t recall the name of the book that I got at about eighteen that was full of neat little shooting articles One was about an ol’boy that shot original Brown Besses and hunted all over North America. I was all about plains guns at the time and looked at his four inch groups at fifty yards and wasn’t impressed.
You see some you tube vids of folks shooting originals, but as above if your just shooting twenty shots a year get an Indian musket do a bit of artificial ageing if you want it to look old and have a ‘blast’.
Be careful though, after your first few shots you can become addicted. Smoothies are meth mixed with melange.
 
If you get an original have it checked out thoroughly by a competent gunsmith before shooting. There may be hidden damage somewhere, like a micro crack in the barrel, rusty breech plug (possibly with stripped or cross threaded threads to boot)
There may be parts in the lock that have micro cracks.

A reproduction is "better" for a shooter.
Most times they cost less than an original, and are less likely to break or go "Boom" in ways you don't want.
 
Muskets take a beating from live shooting, I've seen my Pedersoli 1816 repro go from brand new to looking "a bit experienced" after only 5 or so range trips. Cleaning is a sloppy proposition too unless you're very careful.

Stuff like an original Brown Bess has a barrel made of Iron. I have an original P53 Enfield that was smoothbored and I don't want to shoot it. I put a blank through it when I first got it , just to see if it worked.
 
I would always be worried about the strength and condition of the stock.
 
I shoot an original flint 1816. I had the barrel relined by Bob Hoyt, so I know there are no safety issues. I hunted with it during New Jersey's permit shotgun deer season but now only use it at smoothbore matches at our club. With a temporary rear and sight it will keep them in a pie plate at 50 yards. All my other original muskets(rifled) are percussion and all but one have relined barrels.
 
Yes, a beat to hell and back .75 caliber coach gun a few times just for the experience, but only with blanks, or a few .36 round ball thrown in.

I have been strongly advised not to shoot it, especially not with a .69 caliber round ball, and I agree, as condition of the barrel is really not known.

I'd get it checked by a professional, but that would cost me more than the gun is worth. My plan is to replace it with something newer in the same caliber, and hang this one up on the wall where it belongs.

But I love these pictures too much, not to share them, as it was my first flintlock experience.

46844786535_50fa69c2ca_z.jpg


47684819462_c1f415af20_c.jpg
 
Cleaning is a sloppy proposition too unless you're very careful.

I have been shooting an M1863 and for cleaning I remove nipple, tang screw, slide off the bands and take the barrel for a hot shower. Then dry it, oil inside and out. Otherwise, I guess it would require a lot of care. I like the way all these military muskets & rifles break down.

The 1863 is a "short rifle" or Bannerman modified to Cadet. That is not why I shoot it. I would shoot it anyway. For a flintlock musket, I am open to repaired, re-converted or mix master guns. I am not necessarily looking for that, but; I am open minded to any honest price example. The real top collector grade guns are too pricey and maybe even to important for someone like me to mess with. I dont really want those, so; no regrets no problem.

That coach gun looks like great fun.

Sometime later, after I satisfy more immediate wants and budget allowing, I will go look at those Indian imports. The seller is very close to home. Maybe a Brown Bess, someday. ...
 
Yes, a beat to hell and back .75 caliber coach gun a few times just for the experience, but only with blanks, or a few .36 round ball thrown in.

I have been strongly advised not to shoot it, especially not with a .69 caliber round ball, and I agree, as condition of the barrel is really not known.

I'd get it checked by a professional, but that would cost me more than the gun is worth. My plan is to replace it with something newer in the same caliber, and hang this one up on the wall where it belongs.

But I love these pictures too much, not to share them, as it was my first flintlock experience.

46844786535_50fa69c2ca_z.jpg


47684819462_c1f415af20_c.jpg
Thank God you called it a ‘coach gun’ as we know canoe guns weren’t invented till the 1970s
 
I started shooting ml in early 70s my first ml at sixteen. And bought some ml books. I don’t recall the name of the book that I got at about eighteen that was full of neat little shooting articles One was about an ol’boy that shot original Brown Besses and hunted all over North America. I was all about plains guns at the time and looked at his four inch groups at fifty yards and wasn’t impressed.
You see some you tube vids of folks shooting originals, but as above if your just shooting twenty shots a year get an Indian musket do a bit of artificial ageing if you want it to look old and have a ‘blast’.
Be careful though, after your first few shots you can become addicted. Smoothies are meth mixed with melange.

i believe the guy you refer to that hunted with original Brown Besses was Dick Weller, the same guy whose writings got me interested in smooth bore military muskets when I was a younger teenager. I voraciously read the few articles I could find that either were written by him or about him over and over many times. Loved the pictures too.
 
The original muskets fired more reliably for a few reasons, they were military arms so they had to be very good to almost perfect or contractors would lose their contracts and wouldn’t be honoured. Today’s repro’s are a novelty item so to speak with no real backing or proofing (not in the USA).

The springs on original guns tend to be much heavier and stronger than repos that are made of machined steels, this is one factor I despise about pedersoli guns, their springs are fragile, I’ve replaced the mainspring and frizzen spring with casted copies on almost all of them other than the miruko guns I have.

I’m not so sure I’d shoot an original just because I wouldn’t want to damage it, I consider them antiques. But if I were to shoot one I’d probably go with a flintlock that was never converted and a smoothbore.

I’ve seen some guys with converted 1817 rifles that had the bores lined, to me that’s just not worth it for a gun that might cost upwards near 4-5k.
 

The only real part of the stock you need to be concerned with is the breech and wrist areas, military use would have weakened those areas the most, the lock mortise in any shape just needs to house the lock, chances are no original gun will have a stock in great shape. Forearms are almost never in good shape but can be remedied or replaced.

Original stocks were often made of well seasoned walnut or maple which sat out and dried before it was used. Today’s wood that is mass produced is sometimes weaker due to it not being well seasoned.
 
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