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Space in chamber behind the round ball

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pedalplant

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What are the dangers associated with not ramming a ball snuggly onto the powder charge? Could this condition explode with enough force to fragment the cylinder? Thanks.
 
I’m not sure anyone knows. In my opinion, (clearly a scientific wild guess...) I doubt it, but I’m not taking any chances.

I can’t really think of a good reason not to seat the ball against the charge so I do it.
 
In the extreme it can cause pressure spike. Leaving air space behind projectile allows the pressure build up to jump to the projectile rather then allowing the pressure to evenly expand using the projectile weight and friction to control a smooth progression of depleting pressure through out the travel.

Firearms that experience this in the extreme can have no visible but measurable bulge in the barrel or a noticeable bulge upto cracking even burst if not dealt with, IE new barrel.
 
By leaving an air gap between bullet/ball and charge you have made a pipe bomb.

I'd agree that sometimes there can be little visible evidence of damage, due in the most part to the high quality of modern materials from which guns are made, but on other occasions there can be catastrophic damage involving bystanders [handguns held at arms length] or the shooter [face cuddled up to the breech end of the gun].

Neither is nice.

This video was made by the Boss of CVA brand muzzleloaders, shows what happens when you fail to put the bullet down all the way onto the powder - it is considered to be a bore obstruction rather than a projectile.



I'll let you decide whether or not you'd like to have been holding any of the wreckage he shows in the video.
 
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Welcome to the website/forum pedalplant!
In addition to previous comments, when loading a ball, PUSH the ball firmly onto the powder, no need to "hammer" it home
Mark your ramrod for proper depth as a reference.
 
Seat the ball firmly. Push it in, don't hammer. To test, draw the ramrod out a foot or so, let it drop on the ball. If the rod bounces, the ball is all the way in.

Leaving airspace can cause it to explode and not burn. Hammering the ball can overly compress and ignite the charge.
 
Seat the ball firmly. Push it in, don't hammer. To test, draw the ramrod out a foot or so, let it drop on the ball. If the rod bounces, the ball is all the way in.

Leaving airspace can cause it to explode and not burn. Hammering the ball can overly compress and ignite the charge.

Hammering the ball deforms it. This will NOT ignite the powder charge.
 
IMO, leaving a small distance between the powder charge and the ball or bullet won't cause a problem. By small distance, I'm talking about 1/4" to 3/4" or so.
It's only when there is a considerable distance between the breech and the ball or bullet that problems arise. Anything over a inch might not be good.

Normally, with the ball or bullet against the powder, as soon as the powder starts to burn and has developed some pressure, the ball or bullet starts to move up the barrel. It's like giving the projectile a very hard push to get it going. The projectile is already moving as the powder continues to burn and as the powder does this, the ball or bullet will continue to rapidly gain speed.

The thing that causes a problem is, when the projectile is further up the barrel, a wave of high pressure energy is traveling up the barrel at supersonic speeds and gaining speed as it goes, then suddenly coming up against the base of the bullet or ball. When this pressure wave hits the obstruction it is deflected outward into the wall of the barrel, causing a bulge.

The bottom line is, I don't think the ball or bullet has to be pressed right against the powder when it ignites to be safe.

I will point out that if an air gap does exist between the powder and the projectile, the burning of the powder will be somewhat erratic and accuracy will be inconsistent.


(Those among you who load those modern suppositories with that modern smokeless powder know that small air gaps don't cause a problem. Think of a .38 Special cartridge. You can safely load a 3.1 grain powder load of Bullseye which barely covers the bottom of the case and leaves a huge air gap between the powder and the bottom of the bullet and it doesn't cause a problem.)
 
Revolvers have limited space available in the cylinder so if a person were to allow a quarter inch or more of a space I would assume that powder charge would be relatively small. Again, this is not recommended AT ALL!! Do not leave a void under any projectile in a black powder arm! Ever! But, and this is a very big but, sharps rifles do function perfectly with a void in the chamber, some other civil war arms as well, and the orientation of the arm immediately prior to firing affects the safe discharge not in the least.

Bearing this in mind, I’ve been tempted to test fire a revolver (remotely fired, behind a barricade while filming the action, or lack there of) I have a test mule, an old brass framed .44 1851 sheriff model. All I need is time to run the test. Again, this is not something anyone should actually do but I’m curious about stuff like this.

WRT seating a ball too briskly, compacting the charge with sufficient force enough to ignite it? I’m going to say it’s impossible for a normal human to do that... if it were, I have no doubt one of my ham handed gorilla friends (or myself) would have done so already.
 
Revolvers have limited space available in the cylinder so if a person were to allow a quarter inch or more of a space I would assume that powder charge would be relatively small. Again, this is not recommended AT ALL!! Do not leave a void under any projectile in a black powder arm! Ever! But, and this is a very big but, sharps rifles do function perfectly with a void in the chamber, some other civil war arms as well, and the orientation of the arm immediately prior to firing affects the safe discharge not in the least.

Bearing this in mind, I’ve been tempted to test fire a revolver (remotely fired, behind a barricade while filming the action, or lack there of) I have a test mule, an old brass framed .44 1851 sheriff model. All I need is time to run the test. Again, this is not something anyone should actually do but I’m curious about stuff like this.

WRT seating a ball too briskly, compacting the charge with sufficient force enough to ignite it? I’m going to say it’s impossible for a normal human to do that... if it were, I have no doubt one of my ham handed gorilla friends (or myself) would have done so already.

Thank you, sir.

My reason for asking came from a situation at the range where my buddy mistakenly stacked two round balls into one chamber of a cylinder. This, on his inaugural outing with the new revolver and after my careful tutorial and admonition that he remain focused during the loading procedure (also, he managed to double charge a different chamber).

During the act of dislodging the double stack by driving them out, the concussion of pounding on the punch caused other balls, already rammed home, to migrate toward the mouths of their chamber. Fortunately, one round was moved so far forward as to be obvious and this showed us that all chambers needed to be "re-rammed". It made me wonder about the consequences of not doing so.

Much appreciate your input.
 
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Probably nothing would have happened. Your friend needs to calm down, rehearse the process until he understands what the heck he’s doing. It’s not terribly difficult to load and shoot one of these revolvers safely but how he’s going about it is not the way it’s done.

Powder, ball, repeat six times and then cap the cones. Cap and ball is not rocket science if you just slow down and follow the very simple procedure.
 
Probably nothing would have happened. Your friend needs to calm down, rehearse the process until he understands what the heck he’s doing. It’s not terribly difficult to load and shoot one of these revolvers safely but how he’s going about it is not the way it’s done.

Powder, ball, repeat six times and then cap the cones. Cap and ball is not rocket science if you just slow down and follow the very simple procedure.

Amen. Did my best to guide him. Have never had any of these problems, myself.
 
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Amen. Did my best to guide him. Have never had any of these problems, myself.
Zonie's got it right but then he usually does. There is not enough room in a revolver cylinder chamber to cause a bulge or burst. I did once ring a 50 caliber TC Hawken barrel from a maxi slug that worked up the barrel, off the powder charge after carrying it all day while moose hunting. Put a nice visible ring about 8 inches back from the muzzle.
It's the compressed and expanding gas column, racing up bore unchecked ,until it smacks into the constriction, over powering the steels elasticity limits and bulging or bursting the barrel.
The reason it does not happen when there is a small or no gap is because the bullet mass begins to move with the burning of powder at the base of the charge. The front part of the powder column is not burning initially so the movement of both ( front of powder column and projectile) are gradual increasing together as the expansion ratio increases with the progressive powder burn.
 
All good and valuable info. Perfectly explains the wonderful "push" of the recoil impulse from my Colt's '61 Navy.
 
Actually, the video uses a deliberate bore obstruction, a second bullet in front of the first bullet. Rather unlikely when using a long arm as one should have the ramrod marked..., though as the OP mentioned his buddy rammed two ball on top of each other in a revolver. What perhaps the CEO should have done was to show what happens when one gets a single projectile stuck, perhaps 6" from the charge, perhaps half way down the barrel, and then tries to "shoot it clear" or simply does not check the markings on the ramrod and assumes the projectile is seated. :confused: On the other hand perhaps he knows that the single stuck projectile doesn't cause a very dramatic result, although a bulged barrel is a ruined one.

LD
 
Zonie's got it right but then he usually does. There is not enough room in a revolver cylinder chamber to cause a bulge or burst. I did once ring a 50 caliber TC Hawken barrel from a maxi slug that worked up the barrel, off the powder charge after carrying it all day while moose hunting. Put a nice visible ring about 8 inches back from the muzzle.
It's the compressed and expanding gas column, racing up bore unchecked ,until it smacks into the constriction, over powering the steels elasticity limits and bulging or bursting the barrel.
The reason it does not happen when there is a small or no gap is because the bullet mass begins to move with the burning of powder at the base of the charge. The front part of the powder column is not burning initially so the movement of both ( front of powder column and projectile) are gradual increasing together as the expansion ratio increases with the progressive powder burn.
Great supplement to Zonie’s remarks...

@pedalplant, all you can do is provide the information, describe and demonstrate the process. Some people aren’t ever going to get it. The only thing you can do is keep an eye on them, maybe stand off a bit while they’re at the line or encourage them to take up golf or tennis?
 
was thinking that the demo with the bullet short started in the barrel demonstrated a condition where the shooter used a bullet starter and forgot the ram rod seating. that could happen.
 
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