Charles Moore Flintlock Target Pistol

Enfield,

I "discovered" this thread last evening, and have spent an enjoyable afternoon today reading its various facets. Your photos of the two pairs of pistols (post numbers 137-138) are the gems displaying those facets. Very, very nice.

Early on in the thread the preferences expressed regarding the build gaps were most interesting. My only muzzleloading handgun is a Traditions Trapper C&B .50CAL. A horse and carriage could be driven through the gaps between the ramrod & barrel, and between the front blade sight & barrel on my pistol. The more I read, the more I was reminded of the Trapper build. What a clash in pistol appearance. However, I do understand the Trapper is in a different "class" than the CM.

Along with the CM pairs' photos, the range results --- targets, and how the dueling pistols were shot --- were the favorite and most enjoyable parts of my read. I purposely focus, and love to shoot my pistol "one hand, off-handed." In the period use of dueling pistols, that was the stance used. Your results of the two shots first taken displayed simply excellent shooting!

Finally, about one-half way through the thread there were the brief comments made regarding A.S. Pushkin's involvement in 29 duels. No matter what thoughts Pushkin had, or why he so often became involved in that practice, the result was a sad loss of a promising life. What was left was only the unrealized beauty of any future poetry and prose writings.

I echo sussexmuzllodr's appreciation: "I have enjoyed reading through this lengthy thread.
Thanks to all."

wiksmo

wiksmo said:

I "discovered" this thread last evening, and have spent an enjoyable afternoon today reading its various facets. Enfield, your photos of the two pairs of pistols (post numbers 137-138) are the gems displaying those facets. Very, very nice.

Early on in the thread the preferences expressed regarding the build gaps were most interesting. My only muzzleloading handgun is a Traditions Trapper C&B .50CAL. A horse and carriage could be driven through the gaps between the ramrod & barrel, and between the front blade sight & barrel on my pistol. The more I read, the more I was reminded of the Trapper build. What a clash in pistol appearance. However, I do understand the Trapper is in a different "class" than the CM.

Along with the CM pairs' photos, the range results --- targets, and how the dueling pistols were shot --- were the favorite and most enjoyable parts of my read. I purposely focus, and love to shoot my pistol "one hand, off-handed." In the period use of dueling pistols, that was the stance used. Your results of the two shots first taken displayed simply excellent shooting!

Finally, about one-half way through the thread there were the brief comments made regarding A.S. Pushkin's involvement in 29 duels. No matter what thoughts Pushkin had, or why he so often became involved in that practice, the result was a sad loss of a promising life. What was left was only the unrealized beauty of any future poetry and prose writings.

I echo sussexmuzllodr's appreciation: "I have enjoyed reading through this lengthy thread.
Thanks to all."

wiksmo

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Thanks for the kind words. I hope to get a good report on the percussion versions soon.

Enfield58 said:

Thanks for the kind words. I hope to get a good report on the percussion versions soon.

Click to expand...

I'll very much look forward to that, especially after your earlier comment:
"I've read that the percussion versions are frighteningly accurate. If they had duels with them instead of the flintlocks; you know that someone was not going home that day."

I have not yet shot a flintlock pistol. I would like to someday.

wiksmo

Very nice setup for the pictures. BTW I really like the dice with the percussion pistols.
I also have a pair of CM's one in percussion and one in flint.

great looking pistols!

I took the percussion CMs to the range today. Between the two of them I sent 100 rounds downrange

I took pistol A out on a previous outing and used the 20 grain charge that was working for the flintlock variants. However, it shot really high.

My theory was that the percussion version was generating more velocity because of the faster ignition with the percussion cap and because it didn't have a vent hole like the flintlock, more pressure was contained in the barrel. The greater pressure meant that I was getting higher velocity and a higher point of impact.

That was my theory but I am not sticking to it.

I started off shooting both pistols at the same target and could see the pistol A was shooting higher than the more recent acquisition, pistol B. Both pistols were shooting left.

Perhaps I better explain more on how I was shooting today. If you read an earlier post, I think I mentioned that I like to zero my handguns with my wrist on the sandbags which allowed the pistols to behave under recoil as if I had no support.

I see too many people rest the barrels of their handguns on the sandbags. Depending on the length of the barrel and if it is a revolver, a person runs the risk of the gas and flame damaging the sand bag.

There is a special place in hell for people that put chewing gum under the desk and damage sandbags by resting their handguns on them. You people know who you are!

Well anyway, I discovered that when I rested my wrist or forearm on the sandbags with the flintlocks they shot rather high as well. On a subsequent range session I decided to shoot offhand without any support. I surprised myself by hitting the target!

Using a six o'clock hold I got most of the rounds in the black.

With that said I shot these pistol in the same manner today. I used the Hornady .445 diameter round balls. The patch was made with the finest pillow ticking spun with the very best cotton on domestic looms!

I only used the very best beeswax imported from Malaysia and produced by an exotic honey bee (Apis dorsata) native to that area. The honey from the Apis dorsata is believed to have miracle producing medicinal properties.

I mix the imported beeswax with a proprietary blend of extra virgin olive oils imported from Israel with a hint of lemon juice and bay rum. My exotic blend of beeswax, olive oil, lemon juice and bay rum are carefully mixed to exacting proportions then soaked into the pre-cut pillow ticking patches.

Thanks for keeping up with my so far. If you believe all that then I have a black powder range in the everglades that I will gladly sell you.

I use 1/3 beeswax and 2/3 vegetable oil for the pre-lubricated patches which are about .015" thick. The ball has to be whacked into place with a mallet but goes down the barrel very easy with a long starters.

I decided to load from the flask with my 15 grain measure which really drops only 14 grains. That's close enough for me.

After I moved the front sight over to the left to get it to impact right on the target in the photo below was what I came up with from a distance of 15 paces.

You will notice that there are some holes in the white above the black. That was when I was using a six o'clock hold. In order to get the rounds in the black, I had to aim at the bottom of the paper. So all of the rounds in the black were shot while aiming at the bottom edge of the paper.



I had a similar experience with pistol B using the same load except that it didn't shoot high. Below is the target that I shot with pistol B at the same distance holding on the bottom edge of the black. I may have to play with the windage of the front sight again.

Speaking of windage; the reason that I decided to adjust the front rather than the rear sight is because there was more to play with on the front than the rear.



I decided to see if I could hit anything with these pistols at 50 yards. Pistol A was hopeless. I got two rounds on target with pistol B and a 14 grain charge. The rounds impacted at 10 and 6 O'Clock of the 7 ring in the target below. I shot those two but continued to miss.

So I decided to double the charge to 28 grains and see what happens. The rest of the holes in the target were with a 28 grain charge.

The point of aim (as best as I could do) was at the bottom of the orange.



If there is one thing that I wish I could do with these pistols is get taller front sights. I would like to find the most accurate load possible even if they impact low with tall front sights. I can always file them down to get them on point of aim.

It is still going to be lots of fun working with these guns to get them to hit point of aim. I still am glad that I made the purchases.

When I get a full day available, I will chronograph the loads for both the percussion and the flintlocks. I'm anxious to see what the results will be and will withhold my theories until then.

Figured since everybody was posting their artsy pistol pics, I'd throw out my artsy LePage pistols pic.

biliff said:

View attachment 17237

Figured since everybody was posting their artsy pistol pics, I'd throw out my artsy LePage pistols pic.

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Great photo! Nice pistols.

You have gathered lots of good foundational info from your range report. You're right...it will be much fun bringing your pairs around to a satisfying POA.

You said above, "On a subsequent range session I decided to shoot offhand without any support. I surprised myself by hitting the target!" Not at all a surprise to me. I haven't figured out exactly why, but I have a much harder time hitting my target with a supported pistol. Shooting off hand, there are always POIs ending up in-target. The main challenge is good, consistent groups. We are both having fun shooting our pistols!

Enjoyed your Range Report, and usually learn from them also. Thanks for the good post.

wiksmo

FYI, I filed down the rear sight of mine and now I can use a six o'clock hold with a 5 inch bull and the shots stay in the black. I haven't done it yet but I have bought a reproduction sight for a colt revolver from Dixie and I plan to file it down to fit the front sight's ridiculously small dovetail. I have condsidered opening the dovetail to standard size but my almost 70 year old hands shake too much.

I wonder how those balance compared to the Harper’s Ferry..,

Smokey Plainsman said:

I wonder how those balance compared to the Harper’s Ferry..,

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The Harper's Ferry pistol was/is a martial pistol, with all the grace and clunkiness associated with a firearm designed for soldiering. When fired it was often used as a club. By way of contrast, the Charless Moore pistol was designed as a one-shot target pistol from the outset, albeit with a target in the form of another human being, and is a lot more ergonomic in that respect. You were not expected to have to club your opponent to death if the ball had not done the job for you.

However, opinions differ.

Smokey Plainsman said:

I wonder how those balance compared to the Harper’s Ferry..,

Click to expand...

I have the Harper's Ferry pistol as well as the four Charles Moore pistols. There is a reason that I have only one Harper's Ferry pistol versus several of the others.

Basically, there is no comparison with respect to handling and accuracy. My groups with the Harper's Ferry pistol are the size of a medicine ball.

The Charlie Moore feels very natural in the hand. You don't feel the weight of the long barrels and the checkered grips allow you to hold the pistol but still stay relaxed while you are aiming it. Because of the checkering, you don't have to grip it as tightly as you would a pistol with a smooth surface.

The checkered grips also give me the ability and confidence to squeeze the trigger if I set it prior to firing. Using a tighter grip on the pistol contributes to poorer motor skills at the tip of the trigger finger. You aren't surprised when the pistol goes off. See my earlier posts on my trigger technique with the set trigger. I'm curious about the technique other people use with the set trigger. Inquiring minds want to know.

There is no set trigger on the Harper's Ferry pistol. There is also know rear sight. That contributes to the poorer accuracy compared to the Charlie Moore.

I like the Harper's Ferry because it represents a piece of our history. It is a fun gun to shoot simply because there are not too many .58 caliber flintlock pistols out there. It is fairly pleasant to shoot with the round ball load. However, you really know you have a beast in your hands when the powder ignites to launch a 500 grain Minie ball downrange. If you don't have any great expectations for accuracy, the Harper's Ferry is a fun gun to shoot at three to five yards for minute-of-watermelon tolerances.

If you were torn between getting a Harper's Ferry versus a Charles Moore, get the latter. You won't regret it.

Tho

biliff said:

View attachment 17237

Figured since everybody was posting their artsy pistol pics, I'd throw out my artsy LePage pistols pic.

Click to expand...

Those are nice looking pistols. It would be nice to see that photo blown up with finer resolution. I bet it makes a distinctive looking wall paper for the computer.

johnfrommd said:

FYI, I filed down the rear sight of mine and now I can use a six o'clock hold with a 5 inch bull and the shots stay in the black. I haven't done it yet but I have bought a reproduction sight for a colt revolver from Dixie and I plan to file it down to fit the front sight's ridiculously small dovetail. I have condsidered opening the dovetail to standard size but my almost 70 year old hands shake too much.

Click to expand...

How much did you have to take off the rear sight and at what distance are you shooting?

Enfield58 said:

I have the Harper's Ferry pistol as well as the four Charles Moore pistols. There is a reason that I have only one Harper's Ferry pistol versus several of the others.

Basically, there is no comparison with respect to handling and accuracy. My groups with the Harper's Ferry pistol are the size of a medicine ball.

The Charlie Moore feels very natural in the hand. You don't feel the weight of the long barrels and the checkered grips allow you to hold the pistol but still stay relaxed while you are aiming it. Because of the checkering, you don't have to grip it as tightly as you would a pistol with a smooth surface.

The checkered grips also give me the ability and confidence to squeeze the trigger if I set it prior to firing. Using a tighter grip on the pistol contributes to poorer motor skills at the tip of the trigger finger. You aren't surprised when the pistol goes off. See my earlier posts on my trigger technique with the set trigger. I'm curious about the technique other people use with the set trigger. Inquiring minds want to know.

There is no set trigger on the Harper's Ferry pistol. There is also know rear sight. That contributes to the poorer accuracy compared to the Charlie Moore.

I like the Harper's Ferry because it represents a piece of our history. It is a fun gun to shoot simply because there are not too many .58 caliber flintlock pistols out there. It is fairly pleasant to shoot with the round ball load. However, you really know you have a beast in your hands when the powder ignites to launch a 500 grain Minie ball downrange. If you don't have any great expectations for accuracy, the Harper's Ferry is a fun gun to shoot at three to five yards for minute-of-watermelon tolerances.

If you were torn between getting a Harper's Ferry versus a Charles Moore, get the latter. You won't regret it.

Click to expand...

I have no experience with the rifled .58 version, but my smoothbore .54 percussion Harper’s Ferry is extremely accurate:



But, the gun is very muzzle heavy and the grip angle is quite awkward. Shoots so well I’ll not be getting rid of it but I’ve been eyeing the Charles Moore probably with the flintlock as I don’t own a flint pistol and it looks very nice.