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Period Correct or Personality Appealing?

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I have been reading, thinking about this HC thing ever since I became converted to the Holy Black. Been shooting, working on and building guns since I was 13yrs old and I know what one looks like. I'm 78yrs now. I create my own 3 piece laminated stocks which are superior to anything made in the period. I'll put my hand rubbed linseed oil finish against guns costing thousands of dollars. They are reliable, extremely accurate and pleasant to look at. H/C no, but I would bet that an 18th century person of some means would pay a nice price for one. I am afraid too much attention is paid to H/C and chases away many aspiring craftsmen and artists who would love to use the flintlock muzzleloading platform as a basis for their creativity.
 
I'm all for historic accuracy....to a point. If you're reenacting in a French and Indian war event, you probably shouldnt have a percussion rifle! They didnt exist yet. But IMO most any flintlock should be acceptable. And if you/OP plan to build a KY/PA/TN/NC/VA style of flintlock rifle, the exact type/style of lock isnt so important to me so long as it holds a rock. That is, unless you plan to sell it and the potential buyer cares. I couldn't tell you one lock from the other, but some guys can and to them it matters. If you're building for YOU, get what you want, and build for the purpose you intend to use it for.
 
There is certainly room in this hobby and pastime for both functional accuracy and historical accuracy.

The modern bench guns come to mind with very modern under hammer ignition systems, laminated stocks and specialized triggers for the ultimate in on target accuracy.

There is also a place for firearms that truly reflect a particular period of time and school of architecture.

This forum does focus on the traditional firearms. There are other forums that focus on the modern muzzleloading firearms.

Being a reenactor who is part of a British unit of the French and Indian War time period, we have to deal with the reality that affordable First Model Long Land Pattern muskets are few and far between. We do accept enthusiastic participants who have the Second Model Short Land Pattern and even Third Model EIC muskets. Our representation of the period and the historic significance of the F&I War in the colonies needs the inclusion of those that participate with an accurate attitude rather than fully accurate muskets. The uniforms, accoutrements and living style are correct, not necessarily the muskets. Yes, sharp eyes can detect the 4 inch difference in barrel length, but when we present static displays we use First Model muskets.

When it comes to the choice of being historically correct, period correct or personally correct, it is the choice of the individual and what that person wants from this hobby. Today I am going to my gun club for a match that emphasizes functional accuracy. I am taking my 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle as that is very functionally accurate.
 
Hi,
This stuffs gets ridiculous IMO. You can buy, shoot, make, sell, whatever you want and nobody is going to tell you no or persecute you. Just don't try and pass off a gun as historically accurate if it is not, particularly if you are selling it. Here is a typical scenario on this and other forums. A guy says he built or wants to build a gun just like the one his GGGGG Grandfather might have used in the Rev War. You comment that his gun or ideas are not consistent with what his ancestor would have carried and he goes all "sputtery" about "he's not concerned about historical correctness" or "nobody is HC today if you use blah blah ....." or "I just want a shooter" or "HC or not, it will still kill a deer". Of course all those comments contradict what he originally stated about wanting a gun just like his .... carried". Regardless, nobody cares that it is not HC and any persecution is in their own minds.

dave
 
I create my own 3 piece laminated stocks which are superior to anything made in the period. I'll put my hand rubbed linseed oil finish against guns costing thousands of dollars.

I'm not a HC correct guy, I just like to shoot and have fun, and if that is your idea of fun, terrific. But what are you actually gaining? I have a M70 with a killer figured walnut stock with schnabel forend and the Fleur-de- lis checkering. I listened to a talk from a guy who was explaining why his brown plastic milk jug looking stocked gun was superior to mine because of stability/no warping etc. Okay, fine, but my beautiful 7mm gun will shoot 8mm groups at 100 yards no problem- what exactly is he gaining from shooting an ugly heavier rifle? Hope the above paragraph doesn't violate anything- using it as an example, not to foster discussion on C.F..

Similar with a traditional BP gun. Most muzzle loaders are made with fairly stiff octagon barrels which aren't affected that much from the wood. If you are throwing tradition out of the way wouldn't mounting a scope, or a peep,which can be traditional depending on period add more to accuracy for most than a laminated stock?

Not to poop on your point though. From my perspective whatever you enjoy about BP shooting is up to you- and once you are away from the Period/Historical Correct thing anything goes if it's your thing!
 
:thumbs up:
Post above from Dave,
Great attitude. Each of us is here to share the black powder experience.
There are, and have been, members here that send hate mail and become downright militant to the point of sending treats to those who are not/were not period correct enough for the totalitarian attitude they carry. Some of those have chosen to not come here anymore, others are residing in many lead boxes so they are filtered from displaying the idiocy of over their zealous natures.
And I will bet those individuals still drive Cars and Pickups and use modern doctors and hospitals for their personal needs. HC/PC is great, it's fun and educational. It is still - past history -
I for one, am slowly moving more to the period correct side with my guns and shooting. I do still enjoy modern things, and will likely continue doing so.
 
Did not realize that stirring the coals would create so many sparks. All well done and thoughtful. I'm sure no minds have changed and the discussion will smolder on until another pilgrim comes along and throws a log on the fire in the "spirit of the game".
 
I did F&I. I married in togs on Mt Defiance over looking the Fort dureing a grand encampment . But the gun I had was just an Indian 'India Pattern' , much slimmed down , modified sideplate ,and fore pipe with the composit style .calling it' Coronels private purchase variant'. I did wear a late 17th early18th Lemon butt Snaphance pistol since it went with the togs and might still have seen service. But it was'nt as useful as the 12" dirk. We cut the cake with that. . Cheers Rudyard
 
I did F&I. I married in togs on Mt Defiance over looking the Fort dureing a grand encampment . But the gun I had was just an Indian 'India Pattern' , much slimmed down , modified sideplate ,and fore pipe with the composit style .calling it' Coronels private purchase variant'. I did wear a late 17th early18th Lemon butt Snaphance pistol since it went with the togs and might still have seen service. But it was'nt as useful as the 12" dirk. We cut the cake with that. . Cheers Rudyard
Bet that was quite a sight...... Pictures? Maybe start a new thread in Photos. I for one would like to see them!
 
My purposes are to escape from the modern world. It pleases me to have the skills to function using only the techniques that were available in a time past. I enjoy the connection to a different world, and the company of other with a like mind. There is a certain comfort in the simplicity and the difference from the modern world. Hard to explain.

I work very hard to do research and have equipment that would pass as museum examples. Not because i want to say I am better then others, I dont think that way. But to gain the feel. Again, hard to explain. Yes its very hard to be 100 % and some concessions have to be made, but i do my best. Could i do the same with a less accurate kit ? well i could go thru the motions, but the feeling is not the same. I suppose its a personal mindset. Once i have identified an issue, it nags me until i correct it. But i am OCD that way.

Yes, I could get away with less accurate, Many do, and i do not find that an issue unless attempting to pass as correct. But for me the fun is in the pursuit of a time past. Its extremely, and the company of others of like mind hard to do.

More to say but work calls. Most of all..... Have fun with what you do. No one really cares but you.
 
In my case, period correct is personally appealing.

Of course that doesn't mean that a traditional styled rifle that is not a true copy of a period firearm has no place in the hobby. It doesn't mean that my 1809 Derringer replica rifle shouldn't be used since the patch box release is in the wrong place or the caliber is 50 instead of 54. It certainly doesn't mean that I should disdain from associating with folks that shoot a T/C Hawken rifle. Or for that matter, not welcoming a shooter of a traditional styled rifle with a laminated stock from participating in matches at my gun club. (You should see some of the very performance accurate rifles that show up at some of our matches.) A traditional styled rifle built around a laminated stock would be very much in place at many of the bench, over-the-log, and table matches here in eastern Missouri and western Illinois. In that case it would be both person correct and personality appealing.

Let's not bring an either or attitude into our hobby.

Modern inlines are another matter.
 
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Most interesting chats and points of view. In the short time I've gained an interest in this shooting sport, my focus has been on learning what is built into my percussion pistol, and how all these parts are designed to work well together. My main enjoyment and bottom line goal is to shoot it well, and have fun in these self-challenges.

I have been considering a kit build of a second percussion pistol someday. I'd only want to make certain it's assembled and functions correctly. Then I could say my preference would be "AFC.":rolleyes:

wiksmo
 
None of us are 100%, even the most dedicated ‘stitch counter’ breaks down at some point. I’ve only been to one ‘jurried event’ and there were out of place things there.
All the guns I’ve ever owned have been ‘wrong’ some how in different ways. I still had lots of fun with them and tried to dress with the part, and my dress wasn’t always perfect. I was trying thenI’m still trying, and hope to be trying for years to come.
 
N'yaway Griz.
I am honored. I try. I fail alot. I keep trying ^^

Like Tenn said, even the hardest core historian, can really get only so close. But its that pursuit that i gain great pleasure in. Everyone has a threshold. Whether its depth of vision or monetary, there comes a point where the return does not warrant to outlay. When i had money, I thought nothing of a custom built rifle and fine quill work. But i was heavy into it. I still am, However now money not so abundant. If i was to lose that high dollar custom rifle and kit, i could not replace it.

My problem, is because i am so OCD about it, i could never live with down grading. It would lose the fun for me. Which i do have to admit is kind of sad. But. Like i said its not the "how much things cost" for me as is the "how close can i get"
Its an illness..... LOL ( someone said they had pills now for it )

Yes even in PC situations, the less correct things do have a place, and i find no issue. would certainly not want to throw my PC rifle on the ground in a reenactment, but the India battle gun, well not so worried. Its really all about what, where and why you are doing a specific event.

Inlines..... Hmmmm. Do i really have a problem with them ? ........well...no i suppose not, sort of. But i do kind of feel its cheating and taking away from the entire purpose of a muzzle loading season. I personally, dont feel the need to kill something that badly. I can still go to the store.
Do i support other firearms enthusiasts and their choices ? Absolutely Yes. But taken aside and one on one, i would whisper to them.... "Seriously ?"

This sort of pushes the line of politics more then not. I try to stay away from politics.
 
I understand completely. Just sent away for an eighteenth century tinder box so I don’t have to carry a nineteenth century box when in eighteenth century our fit:)
 
Hi,
This stuffs gets ridiculous IMO. You can buy, shoot, make, sell, whatever you want and nobody is going to tell you no or persecute you. Just don't try and pass off a gun as historically accurate if it is not, particularly if you are selling it. Here is a typical scenario on this and other forums. A guy says he built or wants to build a gun just like the one his GGGGG Grandfather might have used in the Rev War. You comment that his gun or ideas are not consistent with what his ancestor would have carried and he goes all "sputtery" about "he's not concerned about historical correctness" or "nobody is HC today if you use blah blah ....." or "I just want a shooter" or "HC or not, it will still kill a deer". Of course all those comments contradict what he originally stated about wanting a gun just like his .... carried". Regardless, nobody cares that it is not HC and any persecution is in their own minds.

dave

Yes, the persecution is almost always perceived. I’m sure there are nasty historic-detail minded individuals, but I don’t know any of them. More often than not, I see people disdaining the straw man stitch counter nazi. Most “stitch counters” I know are dedicated material historians and the only animosity I see coming from them is when others make claims like, “you can’t prove they didn’t have xyz!” I don’t care if someone wants to make laminated stocks with peep sights and synthetic ramrods, but it’s silly to pass that off as somehow superior when the base technology it shares with a hand-made gun is obsolete. If you’re in to material history as I am then it just makes sense to be as close to the original artifact as possible rather than try to make an obsolete thing more modern. Don’t care if someone else wants to, of course.
 
I started out doing living history from the perspective of a professional historian and instructor. In my case, I had a lot to learn about material culture and the history of the "everyday" and mundane physical culture of the different periods. I'm still learning as I go.

I was fortunate to have input from people who'd done things for quite some time, and new a great deal. To my mind, after six plus years of doing the 1830s, I'll say that I see a few issues: 1) the money factor. We all have to economize, and while the linen may be absolutely better and more convincing, many of us balk at the cost and opt for, say, cotton canvas. 2) Our stuff is nice and clean and little used. In the really existing early 19th century stuff was subject to continual hard use and meticulously repaired, patched, and made right again. 3) Material scarcity. Fact is, not everyone got all the stuff that they sere supposed to! There was a lot of material scarcity and things were constantly adapted or gone without. 4) Our ancestors were far more pragmatic than we give them credit for. There are any number of descriptions of folks from Old Europe being scandalized by the clothing and hair styles and general comportment of Native Americans/ Amerindians. But there are very similar accounts of people in the Americas going about in scanty attire, and adapting to the local conditions. This one seldom sees in living history. There are lots of paintings showing men in Texas and along the Mississippi wearing shirts open at the collar/ front, a pair of trousers, and nothing else. But woe betide anyone dressing that way at a living history event! "A properly dressed man wore high-waisted, tight pants, a shirt, a cravat or neck-cloth, a vest, and a tail coat or frock coat and hat!" This is indeed "proper dress" like you'd wear to a formal gathering or to have your portrait painted... Doesn't mean that is what people wore outside when it is hotter'n blazes!;) Small wonder that so many living historians in the U.S. South keel over once or twice from the heat! We're a bit whacko when it comes to being "decent" and showing the public the degree to which status was tied to clothing and dress, and that people had to protect themselves from the sun and elements through covering up most of their skin and anatomy. But I think we tend to overdo it. Last, 5) we are inevitably PC and PC, which is to say "period correct" but also "politically correct." None of us can go full-on 1830s without being driven away by angry reactions... People of the 1830s were fastidiously polite, but also capable of being very coarse, vulgar and combative. They drank whiskey and gin constantly. They were capable of being loud and boisterous and obnoxious. So none of us, really, can go fully into the period without alienating and even rankling our modern-day interlocutors. Some of the period slang would be a tremendous addition to a living history persona, but it is also easily misunderstood by the general public. :eek:

In my case, I've tried my level best to put together a New Orleans Grey impression. The problem is that while intellectually we know that these men acquired jean wool work clothes, civilian roundabout jackets, trousers, and seal-skin travelers or hunting "Elmer Fudd" caps, along with lots of militia leather equipment and muskets and .54 caliber rifles, one faces the obstacle of having to make all of that stuff by hand since no one makes it "ready to wear." If I had my druthers, I'd try to re-purpose some sort of Confederate-era gray or butternut jean-wool jacket, but since I have limited resources, time as well as money, it was simpler to acquire a gray War of 1812 militia uniform! Same for headgear... Much easier to acquire the model 1825 forage cap than try to make a faux-seal skin cap, since seal skin is a no-no these days. I'd thought of horse hide, or some kind of fur to approximate, but again, time and resources intervene. The result, of course, is a somewhat dated and even inaccurate portrayal of these combatants. The inaccuracy is then accentuated by my advancing age, overfondness for beer and concomitant paunch, and physical condition, etc. That, and my wife absolutely hates the authentic male hair styles of the period! :oops:

I think this is something that causes a brou-ha-ha with living historians: There are people entirely willing to devote the necessary time and resources to getting everything "just so" while there are others who would rather "get by" with something easier and less time-consuming. And then this becomes a source of division. :rolleyes:
 
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