Black powder guns and TSA

I tried searching the forums for keywords like "TSA" "airlines" etc and couldn't find anything.
The TSA website and some other sites say no powder and no primers or caps. But how does one fly legally with their gun without the caps or powder? As it is not legally a firearm can it be declared on the same TSA form as a modern cartridge gun?

MarkItZero said:

I tried searching the forums for keywords like "TSA" "airlines" etc and couldn't find anything.
The TSA website and some other sites say no powder and no primers or caps. But how does one fly legally with their gun without the caps or powder? As it is not legally a firearm can it be declared on the same TSA form as a modern cartridge gun?

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You can’t fly with powder or caps. Period. You will have to get your powder and caps at your destination. No problem checking the gun.

I understand that I can't bring caps or powder, I was just wondering how you declare the gun since I imagine the TSA form is written for modern guns

I believe a firearm is a firearm, modern or not to the TSA.

Blackpowder guns are not classified as firearms, hence no form 4473 to purchase or FFL to ship to individual. This presents a problem to law enforcement because they are unregulated. TSA probably does whatever they want to about the exclusion. I knew a guy years ago who wore one everywhere he went and the local LEO couldn't do anything about it. Even the NC Highway Patrol couldn't charge him for open or concealed carrying. He did it to mess with them. And succeeded!

MarkItZero said:

I tried searching the forums for keywords like "TSA" "airlines" etc and couldn't find anything.
The TSA website and some other sites say no powder and no primers or caps. But how does one fly legally with their gun without the caps or powder? As it is not legally a firearm can it be declared on the same TSA form as a modern cartridge gun?

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I have successfully flown abroad to a European country with my black powder hunting rifle. Check out the doublegunforum, where a lot of guys travel abroad to hunt with their antique rifles. I have a lot of advice, if you want it.

MarkItZero said:

I tried searching the forums for keywords like "TSA" "airlines" etc and couldn't find anything.
The TSA website and some other sites say no powder and no primers or caps. But how does one fly legally with their gun without the caps or powder? As it is not legally a firearm can it be declared on the same TSA form as a modern cartridge gun?

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Here: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=40082&Number=487698#Post487698

When people say that muzzleloading guns and other guns made before 1898 aren't guns, they are giving the BATF definition of what a regulated gun is. That's not the same as State definitions or even the TSA definition.

Many states classify black powder guns as firearms and treat them as such in their regulations.
IMO, it's best to just consider your muzzleloader or cap and ball pistol a real firearm and accept the rules governmental bodies set up and deal with it.

Dwight Rutherford said:

I believe a firearm is a firearm, modern or not to the TSA.

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I agree with that.. Flew to Iowa to hunt Pheasants with some good friends- checked my original ML just like a modern firearm.
Caps & powder were provided by Iowans.

I have heard ‘stories’ of the TSA folks being befuddled with muzzleloaders with no visible serial number or manufacture’s name. If your muzzleloaders are not marked, ask questions ahead of time about how to handle. Have not traveled with any of my ‘unmarked’ muzzleloaders yet, so no real world experience here.

Seriously considered traveling to Namibia a few years ago with a muzzleloader, but ultimately traveled with modern firearms. Learned a lot while investigating process. Would strongly suggest that you review, understand and follow TSA regulations, know any unique rules your airline may have and be prepared with exactly what is expected and required at your destination. Carry hard copies of the rules and regulations. Do not rely on forums such as this for interpretation of rules. Guarantee that no one will know or care what forum you were told what you could do as they lead you off to their local bed and breakfast for not doing something right. It’s your responsibility to know.

There are many myths going around. Having been a PH for over 25-years I have checked in a firearm over 100 times easy. There is no "form" for TSA. There is a "declaration" that is provided by the airline. The "declaration" just says this gun is unloaded. You sign the card and put it in the gun case. TSA does not and is not authorized to handle the gun or look at/for serial #'s. They don't always open the case. When they do, it is for inspection purposes other than looking at the gun, just like when they decide to open your regular luggage and poke around. They will look under the foam, in compartments and look at accessories in the case. There's no hassle and nothing special about the TSA inspection. Powder, loose primers and caps are prohibited in any luggage. Loaded conventional cartridges are not prohibited in a hard package or original packaging (but that's not the subject of this). Most of the time we would have the destination purchase powder and percussion caps or primers long in advance. If they have a limited selection you might have them get what they can and either get those same components at home and check sights, or go through a sighting ritual upon arrival. If your destination contact cannot/will not get the components you can get permission to have them shipped. Purchase them new from a dealer/distributor and have them shipped to yourself, c/o the contact person. Get a minimum amount as you have no good way to bring the left-overs home with you. If you're a returning hunter you should arrange to provide proper storage container to the contact person and have them store it for you until next year if possible and you are comfortable with one-year old components. I recently flew with a flintlock. The outfitter on the other end did get FFg but I usually use FFFg. I bought some at home and figured out a load that would work for this trip. I used exactly 95 grains of the FFg out of the pound. I paid $30 and gave the man that went and got it $20 for gas. $50 is not too much to get to use my own rifle. I was not going to drive 26 hours. Next week I am driving 17.5 hours to an antelope hunt because I am taking my muzzleloaders, powder and caps. That outfitter could not find any powder since August when I asked. In this case I want to use my rifle enough to do the drive (and I can take the meat/cape/horns back with me). If you go out of the Country you will fill out the "declaration" and also the Customs 4457 Declaration of Personal Effects. You go to the Customs office before your trip and take your rifle with you (especially if it has a serial #). Also take anything worth more than a few hundred dollars, ie: binoculars, camera, etc. A CBP Officer will verify that what you put on the 4457 matches what you have and your ID. When you check in internationally, you provide a copy to the CBP Officer before departure and on arrival back in the Country. You also fill out a Customs Declaration 6059. That is provided when you re-enter the USA and it list what you purchased abroad. Noteworthy is that many, many European countries do not allow hunting with a muzzleloader and others have requirements for caliber, projectile type and even barrel length. In African countries muzzleloader are usually permitted hunting implements but the components are not easy to come by. With a flintlock, at least you only need powder on the other end. I hope this is helpful.

Sparkitoff said:

Noteworthy is that many, many European countries do not allow hunting with a muzzleloader and others have requirements for caliber, projectile type and even barrel length.

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Great and useful post, even for me, living in a country where you CAN shoot game with a muzzleloader, providing that it is a SHOTGUN, and used on lofting game birds. Use of ANY muzzleloader on anything bigger than a squirrel is VERY problematical, because of the minimum M/E requirements for various game, namely deer, here in UK. Scotland, although still part of the UK, has its own rules about game shooting, and you'd be VERY hard-pressed to find a muzzle loader that could meet the legal velocity and muzzle energy requirements - red deer, for instance need 1750fps and 2450 ft lbs. That's probably why you never hear about any MLs being used in UK.

The only other place I know of where ML shooting is allowed on terrestrial game - deer/boar et al, is Hungary. capandball on youtube shows himself taking game in this way.

Getting a little off-topic here but Hungary requires conicals for hunting. No PRB's allowed (for hunting). Go figure...

When I flew to Idaho about 10 years ago for a Muley hunt, I brought my T/C Hawken and made up 40, "50-70 Gov't" cartridges loaded with 60 grains of FFg black powder, two foil-wrapped #11 percussion caps, then topped with my 350 grain .50 caliber REAL bullet secured with a dab of Duco cement. At the Ranch, I disassembled my "cartridges" and had all the supplies I needed. The TSA inspector even approved my home-printed .50-70 cartridge box labels. He did check to see that my Hawken rifle was marked ".50 caliber." Apparently there is no prohibition about brass cartridges loaded with black powder, only cans of bulk powder and percussion caps. I do try to follow regulations---

There's an idea! Load your black powder and percussion caps in 45/70 brass cases with a bullet seated on top and put them back in the ammo box for flying. Just check them as loaded ammo. Dont resize the brass, just push the bullet into the case with the powder and cap inside and crimp slightly. You can carry "loaded ammo", right?

I might think that even TSA might be able to figure out that there is something out of place with cartridges being shipped with a muzzle loading rifle in the 10 years since Curator successfully travelled with his rifle.

Grenadier1758 said:

I might think that even TSA might be able to figure out that there is something out of place with cartridges being shipped with a muzzle loading rifle in the 10 years since Curator successfully travelled with his rifle.

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Does TSA have a rule that says the ammo must go with the firearm? How would they know it wasn't for another weapon? If by all appearance, it's a box of loaded ammo, they couldn't tell the difference. Box says 45/70, cases are 45/70, looks like 45/70 ammo, shouldn't be an issue. After all, original ammo was loaded with black powder!

curator said:

When I flew to Idaho about 10 years ago for a Muley hunt, I brought my T/C Hawken and made up 40, "50-70 Gov't" cartridges loaded with 60 grains of FFg black powder, two foil-wrapped #11 percussion caps, then topped with my 350 grain .50 caliber REAL bullet secured with a dab of Duco cement. At the Ranch, I disassembled my "cartridges" and had all the supplies I needed. The TSA inspector even approved my home-printed .50-70 cartridge box labels. He did check to see that my Hawken rifle was marked ".50 caliber." Apparently there is no prohibition about brass cartridges loaded with black powder, only cans of bulk powder and percussion caps. I do try to follow regulations---

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Henry Miles said:

Does TSA have a rule that says the ammo must go with the firearm? How would they know it wasn't for another weapon? If by all appearance, it's a box of loaded ammo, they couldn't tell the difference. Box says 45/70, cases are 45/70, looks like 45/70 ammo, shouldn't be an issue. After all, original ammo was loaded with black powder!

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Preparing to travel by air in 2011 with a muzzleloader I was warned by the outfitter and confirmed with TSA that black powder was an explosive and could not be legally transported by air in any manner or form. Was told that putting black powder in reloaded ammunition and labeling as smokeless would be considered an attempt to circumvent a security measure and a felony. While I can’t find it at the moment, outfitter cited a case where a hunter was charged with individual felonies for each round of ammunition he had reloaded with black powder.

Curator, what you suggest and got away with was the ‘internet’ workaround at the time, but based on TSA advice I received in 2011 believe you are admitting to multiple felonies on a public forum, unless the regulations changed between 2009 and 2011. Just my opinion.

The Federal Aviation Administration, part of the United States Department of Transportation (USDOT) has jurisdiction over the transportation of hazardous materials on aircraft.

https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/interp/01-0216

Here is a link to the interp that was issued on this subject. This interp still stands and was written in 2001. The Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) is a USDOT Administration. PHMSA writes the HM regs for all transportation modes and also issues all the interps.

It is not advised to load shells with BP to circumvent the regulations.

Fleener