Breech Plug

Personally, I have not had any problems with dribbling in enough powder in a caplock, then reseating the ball ( just in case it may have moved) and shooting one out. If someone brought me one to blow out, I would not attempt it. As someone already pointed out, it might be loaded with the wrong powder!

But I believe the original poster only wanted to know if you could or couldn't remove the plug. Lots of good discussion though.

I have removed the breech on the old Spanish C.V.A.s and it is a pain. I milled the barrel and rethreaded a new breech in it. I think they must have drove the breech in and the threaded the drum into it. It is recommended to never remove those breech plugs and now I know why. Many years ago when CVA fist came into the picture they had Douglas barrels. The kits were American made, but they decided to go Spanish they are pains. They can be reworked and shot, but time consuming and expensive.
Cheers

I converted a CVA Mountain from percussion to flint, and built a 2nd barrel in .32 cal for it. I removed the drum, and turned 2 more from metric bolts with matching threads. I removed the breach plug and cleaned and lubed the threads and made sure there was no small pitting or rust. There was no problem replacing the breach plug and no problems machining a breach plug for the new barrel to match the tang. the "drums" were made sunk into the barrel flat the thickness of the touch hole liner. as long as you line up the breach plug so the "drum" hole is centered, the threads on the drum are slightly tapered to finish lining things up as you tighten it. its not "magic" same rules apply to fitting the breach plug, the face must seal against the rifling. Anyone who has breached a new barrel correctly would have no problems removing a CVA plug

Apparently I had a fluke. The threads looked to be stretched and didn't match the breech plug threads. I had purchased two of the 50 caliber Hawkins used. The one I removed the breech had been treated rough, once I got it repaired and restocked it handled good. Never had the dilemma that I had with that old rifle before and it was challenging. That was when I had good eyes and tooling.
Has anyone ever heard of breech plugs being welded in?

I have heard the stories of welded breach plugs, but I have never seen one. I have seen breech plugs fit so perfectly that you would swear they are welded. the rumors were that some guns made in India were welded and made of junk metal suitable only as wall hangers, but I steer clear from junk like that. CVA guns and kits can be decent shooters the maslin locks are a little rough but work.
I have seen a few that were never cleaned and rusted so bad they may as well be welded.

So far in my experience I've been lucky that I've been able to correct whatever difficulty encountered without contemplating the removal of a breech plug. I coached the blackpowder discipline in 4-H Shooting Sports for 20+ years. Teenagers being teenagers, had to deal with dryballed rifles occasionally, as well as other mistakes. Kept a Co2 discharger handy for both percussion and flint. Hardly 'traditional', but resolved a multitude of sins. One instance where the discharger did NOT work was a twisted-off bronze brush all the way to the bottom of a TC Hawken 50 caplock. Managed to work 10-15 grs. FFFFg through the touch hole and shot it out.

George C said:

Do all CVA Muzzleloaders have a removable Breech Plug? Not interested in inline rifles just the traditional cap lock and flintlock.

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As far as I know, all muzzle-loading barrels have removable breech plugs.
Keith.

I have, in the long ago past, worked on several CVA Mt Rifles. Had to remove the breech plug on one and it was not difficult because I had all the info and a drawing of the plug and drum. I witnessed the barrel, plug and drum, removed the drum and the plug, did what I needed to do and put it back together. No problem....

Asked Dave Silk(sp) (was President of CVA at the time) about it later and he said it was no big deal as long as you got things to line back up. .....That gun is still shooting although it shot out its first CVA barrel. Replaced it with another CVA barrel and its still going as far as I know.

I will admit, its not my favoriate breech plug and drum set up but what the heck, not everyone gets a paten breech.

George C said:

Do all CVA Muzzleloaders have a removable Breech Plug? Not interested in inline rifles just the traditional cap lock and flintlock.

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The answer sort of depends on what is meant by removeable. Removing a CVA (or T/C, Lyman, Investarms, et al) can be done since all the parts are threaded. The factories certainly did not make removing a breech plug easy. That is why CVA made the caveat that removal should only be done by a qualified FACTORY gunsmith.

The CVA breech plug is indeed removeable. The real problem is in getting all the parts aligned and back together. Well, the first problem is getting all foot pounds of torque that was used to install the breech plug to turn it out without damaging the flats on the barrel. For the CVA and Traditions, the drum must be removed first. A witness mark is needed to align the plug to the barrel on assembly. The barrel needs to be very secure in a very sturdy vise with suitable pads to prevent scarring the barrel and grooves to keep the barrel from turning. Then it is time to get out the breech plug removal tool with the very long arm to overcome the installation torque.

I know tool makers in my gun club that have removed a CVA/Traditions breech plug and reinstalled it. They don't recommend removal of a breech plug unless there are very compelling reasons to do so. Such as severe corrosion at the breech and the barrel is to be cut off at the breech and a new plug and drum are to be installed. If one wanted to be able to swap his CVA between cap lock and flint lock, it would be a better choice to get another rifle.

Since the OP has stated that he only wanted to increase his knowledge, then I hope we have done so.

In viewing the design it can be seen that the weakness of the system is that the drum is threaded directly into the breech plug which means one thread pitch interrupts the other at 90 degrees and that about 1/4 of the threads of the breech plug have been removed in the drum installation.
There would be a good chance that the breech plug would be torsion-ally distorted in it's removal and a new one would need to be made to replace it to achieve index with the drum thread through the rear barrel wall. The drum would probably be reusable. This is certainly no profound issue to any qualified machinist but could be a dangerous proposition for Bubba and his pipe wrench.

George C said:

I don't I was just curious.

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You know what they say about curiosity, It's killed more than one cat.

I did remove my breech plug from my CVA Tower percussion rifled musket. With a brass-jawed VICE using brass-jawed (brass lined) adjustable wrench to remove the nipple plug *that locks the breech plug into place*. The breech plug came unscrewed with some persuasion. I then removed the water-fouled load and cleaned and reassembled the unit with anti seize. Guys, It is a pain in the rump to do this... you must have the patience of a monk and be WILLING to WALK AWAY from your work to cool off (just when the cussing stage kicks in).

To let you know, I did that job on my wife's CVA Tower over twenty years ago... it is still is going accurate, safe & strong.

George C said:

Do all CVA Muzzleloaders have a removable Breech Plug? Not interested in inline rifles just the traditional cap lock and flintlock.

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Good to know, thanks guys! Glad I never tried to work on one of these.

Must say the "new" CVA design has always intrigued me. From an engineering point the design adds substantial shear strength in return for the loss of the threads the drum replaces. Even the drum cross thread themselves probably add some strength. I used to be able to calculate the total shear but now beyond me. IIRC there may have been a lawsuit over CVAs early plug failures either prompting or defending the new design. The earliest related designs under the name "jukar" had a really bad rep for quality. Observed one of them launching its nipple into the roof of the range cover along with the "press fit" plug moving backwards.

I have had to pull at least 2 of the new CVA plugs and both were successfully reinstalled and tested. That was in a fully tooled shop. I cannot, however, recommend those without experience and tooling to do so or even to remove the drum. Repeatedly removing the latter may eventually wear the threads in such a way that that it becomes loose and won't hold position. Have seen the use of shims, locktite and peening in attempting to fix loose ones. Imagine blowing a drum sideways on a crowded range. Certainly an inspection point before acquiring/repairing one.

I have to say Go for it if your insurance company backs you up.

Mine would not.

For my own I would never need to as CVA and such were manure IMHO

I do not have any muzzleloaders that the breech plug is not removeable. I have biult many and they are all removeable. I have taken many CVA's and worked them over for friends that are shooters. The major part of making them shoot very good groups is refitting the breech plug. Now the part about them failing, well in 30 years of making them shoot, I have never had one fail. I have rework all of the brands out there over that time. If I work it over and it will not shoot under 2 inch groups at a hundred yards, then I start on barrel work. All my breech plugs are hand fitted with 100% contact on the matching surfaces inside. Most all are also flat bottom chambers with a matched cleaning jag.

rbrown1950 said:

I do not have any muzzleloaders that the breech plug is not removeable. I have biult many and they are all removeable. I have taken many CVA's and worked them over for friends that are shooters. The major part of making them shoot very good groups is refitting the breech plug. Now the part about them failing, well in 30 years of making them shoot, I have never had one fail. I have rework all of the brands out there over that time. If I work it over and it will not shoot under 2 inch groups at a hundred yards, then I start on barrel work. All my breech plugs are hand fitted with 100% contact on the matching surfaces inside. Most all are also flat bottom chambers with a matched cleaning jag.

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Are you a master machinist? A master gunsmith? You must certainly be.
I do not think the OP was referring to the technical abilities of a master machinist, but rather the average Home garage enthusiast.. Breech plug removal is certainly doable by qualified individuals, but should not be attempted by the average user.

Anyone qualified would not need to ask on a forum if it could be done.

Newtire said:

Personally, I have not had any problems with dribbling in enough powder in a caplock, then reseating the ball ( just in case it may have moved) and shooting one out. If someone brought me one to blow out, I would not attempt it. As someone already pointed out, it might be loaded with the wrong powder!

But I believe the original poster only wanted to know if you could or couldn't remove the plug. Lots of good discussion though.

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If all else fails, can take the nipple out, run a 1/4 - 28 tap in ( no need to drill ), screw in a 1/4 - 28 grease zerk and push it out ‘hydrolically’
Boiling water cleans it up, in most cases, this a better option than removal of breach plug by a civilian.

coloradoclyde said:

I would also note; That even companies like Thompson center and all other traditional barrel makers for that matter. Their breech plugs should not be removed without a dam good reason and qualified experience....

Remember! The breech plug is usually what the Medical examiner removes from the skull of the corpse when there is a failure.
Modern inlines with removable breech plugs have 3-5 times the threads to hold the breech plug in....most also have a breech face of some type to prevent it from becoming a projectile.

Although some traditional sidelock breech plugs "can" be removed....They are, and should be considered non-removable....as the manufacturer intends.

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I would not build a gun with a installed plug and not pull it to examine both the breeching and the bore. Too many are sloppily done. But I often make my own breeches and know how to remove and install.
The factory things are often installed by machine and are very (too) tight in most instances and virtually never properly fitted. Some TCs will break off before the threads break loose since the rebate between the threads and the body of the breech are over stressed.

rbrown1950 said:

I do not have any muzzleloaders that the breech plug is not removeable. I have biult many and they are all removeable. I have taken many CVA's and worked them over for friends that are shooters. The major part of making them shoot very good groups is refitting the breech plug. Now the part about them failing, well in 30 years of making them shoot, I have never had one fail. I have rework all of the brands out there over that time. If I work it over and it will not shoot under 2 inch groups at a hundred yards, then I start on barrel work. All my breech plugs are hand fitted with 100% contact on the matching surfaces inside. Most all are also flat bottom chambers with a matched cleaning jag.

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Can you explain how refitting a breech plug affects accuracy?