Just bought my first grrw trapper ser# 69 will post pics when it gets here just wondering who's got one and the details on it. Pics would be great also !
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Grrw trapper pistols
- Thread starter lou puleff
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
post good detailed pics and i can get you all the info you need.
someone already asked the person I had in mind!
These are always fun requests to try and help out you folks. I hear from "muzzlestuffer" every once in a while about a GRRW gun.
Here's what I found in the old GRRW Record Book.
GRRW Trapper Pistol
Ser. No. #69
Barrel: Smooth-bore, .54 cal.
Lock: Siler Lock - percussion
Gunsmith: Greg Roberts
Build Date: 1979
Del. Date: 1980
Sent To: The Powder Horn, New Hall, CA.
Speaking "old GRRW Record Book" is an interesting story in itself. When GRRW closed it's doors the bank guys throw out allot of things including this book. The employees were allowed to go in the building and get their personal things, tools, etc. First employee of GRRW - Carl Walker gathered his personal items then happened to look in the dumpster outside. About half way down in the dumpster he saw paper and look into what he was seeing - the GRRW Record Book had been thrown out by someone, Carl grabbed it taking it home. If he hadn't of retrieved the book the information above would be unknown.
These are always fun requests to try and help out you folks. I hear from "muzzlestuffer" every once in a while about a GRRW gun.
Here's what I found in the old GRRW Record Book.
GRRW Trapper Pistol
Ser. No. #69
Barrel: Smooth-bore, .54 cal.
Lock: Siler Lock - percussion
Gunsmith: Greg Roberts
Build Date: 1979
Del. Date: 1980
Sent To: The Powder Horn, New Hall, CA.
Speaking "old GRRW Record Book" is an interesting story in itself. When GRRW closed it's doors the bank guys throw out allot of things including this book. The employees were allowed to go in the building and get their personal things, tools, etc. First employee of GRRW - Carl Walker gathered his personal items then happened to look in the dumpster outside. About half way down in the dumpster he saw paper and look into what he was seeing - the GRRW Record Book had been thrown out by someone, Carl grabbed it taking it home. If he hadn't of retrieved the book the information above would be unknown.
Well thank God he grabbed it ! I never knew they made smoothbore pistols I'm sure there not many of them around? I wonder if the book shows how many were made ? Thanks for the info buck it matches everything I've seen I'll post pics when it gets here.
plmeek
40 Cal.
I've already shared this information with Lou in PMs and email, but thought I would post here for others.
Here is one of my GRRW Trappers Pistols. It's the standard model like the one pictured in their 1976 catalog. It has a belt hook.
Ser. No. P-79
Barrel: Rifled, .54 cal., 8" long
Lock: Small Siler Lock - percussion
Gunsmith: Don McKee
Build Date: not recorded, details blank in record book
Del. Date: unknown
Sent To: not recorded, details blank in record book
Here is a scan of the page in the 1976 GRRW Catalog showing the Trappers Pistols. Notice that the customer had the option of either half or full stock. Not stated, but the twist of the rifling was also an option in that it could either be 1:20 or 1:60. Obviously based on Lou's recent acquisition, smooth bore was also an option. Belt hooks or "sash clips" were also an option on factory finished pistols.
This next Trappers Pistol is a full stock version. This pistol does not have a belt hook while the others do. The trigger guard is different than on the other two pistols, also.
Ser. No. P-97
Barrel: Rifled, .50 cal., 6" long
Lock: Small Siler Lock - percussion
Gunsmith: Neill Fields
Order Date: 11-21-78
Build Date: probably early 1979 but haven't check with Carl to see if it's in record book
Del. Date: unknown
Sent To: J. B Norton, Munroe Falls, Ohio
Here is the Labor & Materials Contract for the above pistol when it was ordered. I purchased this pistol and the next one from the estate of the original owner, Mr. Norton. He saved the following document.
My third Trappers Pistol is the full stock flintlock version shown in the catalog scan above. As I'll show, it is the actual pistol pictured in the catalog and print ads of the period. Not shown, but the belt hook is rather fancy with a lot of decorative designs filed into it.
Ser. No. P-68
Barrel: Rifled, .45 cal., 4.5" long
Lock: Small Siler Lock - flint
Gunsmith: Greg Roberts
Order Date: not known
Build Date: probably late 1975 or early 1976 but haven't check with Carl to see if it's in record book
Del. Date: not known
Sent To: J. B Norton, Munroe Falls, Ohio
This document was included in Mr. Norton's papers about P-68. It appears to be something that GRRW sent Mr. Norton at the time he purchased the pistol or when he was considering the purchase.
Greg Roberts makers mark is on the barrel and on the lock.
This image is from Doc White's website and used with his permission. It appears to be the original of the image used in GRRW's 1976 Catalog and in print ads from the same year.
This is a comparison of the wood grain in the grip from the image above to the wood grain in my P-68. As you can see in the photo below, the wood grain in the grip is like a finger print and proves that P-68 is the same flint pistol as shown in Doc's image as well as GRRW print ads from 1976. Other parts are the same such as the filed screw heads, the silver thumb piece, and brightly polished head of the barrel key. The white bone tip of the ramrod is washed out in Doc's image, but it's there.
This is an ad in Lyman’s Muzzleloader’ Handbook, copyright 1976, that illustrated the larger half stock version and a smaller full stock version of GRRW's Trapper Pistol. It is the same image from Doc's website shown above.
I haven't check with Carl to see if detail information on either of the two pistols from the Norton estate are in the record book. But based on the printed material and photographs shown above, P-68 couldn't have been made later than early 1976 and was likely made before that.
I don't have an explanation for the discrepancy in the dates given for Lou's P-69 and my P-68 and P-97. Since there is only one digit separating P-68 and P-69, I would expect Lou's pistol to have been made in 1976 or possibly 1975. It also seems really odd that P-97 and P-68 would have been made in the same year--1979.
The highest serial number I know of for a Trappers Pistol is 100. I don't recall any detail information on it being recorded in the record book, but it was made for Oran Scurlock, publisher of Muzzleloader magazine. I'll post some images of it in my next post.
Here is one of my GRRW Trappers Pistols. It's the standard model like the one pictured in their 1976 catalog. It has a belt hook.
Ser. No. P-79
Barrel: Rifled, .54 cal., 8" long
Lock: Small Siler Lock - percussion
Gunsmith: Don McKee
Build Date: not recorded, details blank in record book
Del. Date: unknown
Sent To: not recorded, details blank in record book
Here is a scan of the page in the 1976 GRRW Catalog showing the Trappers Pistols. Notice that the customer had the option of either half or full stock. Not stated, but the twist of the rifling was also an option in that it could either be 1:20 or 1:60. Obviously based on Lou's recent acquisition, smooth bore was also an option. Belt hooks or "sash clips" were also an option on factory finished pistols.
This next Trappers Pistol is a full stock version. This pistol does not have a belt hook while the others do. The trigger guard is different than on the other two pistols, also.
Ser. No. P-97
Barrel: Rifled, .50 cal., 6" long
Lock: Small Siler Lock - percussion
Gunsmith: Neill Fields
Order Date: 11-21-78
Build Date: probably early 1979 but haven't check with Carl to see if it's in record book
Del. Date: unknown
Sent To: J. B Norton, Munroe Falls, Ohio
Here is the Labor & Materials Contract for the above pistol when it was ordered. I purchased this pistol and the next one from the estate of the original owner, Mr. Norton. He saved the following document.
My third Trappers Pistol is the full stock flintlock version shown in the catalog scan above. As I'll show, it is the actual pistol pictured in the catalog and print ads of the period. Not shown, but the belt hook is rather fancy with a lot of decorative designs filed into it.
Ser. No. P-68
Barrel: Rifled, .45 cal., 4.5" long
Lock: Small Siler Lock - flint
Gunsmith: Greg Roberts
Order Date: not known
Build Date: probably late 1975 or early 1976 but haven't check with Carl to see if it's in record book
Del. Date: not known
Sent To: J. B Norton, Munroe Falls, Ohio
This document was included in Mr. Norton's papers about P-68. It appears to be something that GRRW sent Mr. Norton at the time he purchased the pistol or when he was considering the purchase.
Greg Roberts makers mark is on the barrel and on the lock.
This image is from Doc White's website and used with his permission. It appears to be the original of the image used in GRRW's 1976 Catalog and in print ads from the same year.
This is a comparison of the wood grain in the grip from the image above to the wood grain in my P-68. As you can see in the photo below, the wood grain in the grip is like a finger print and proves that P-68 is the same flint pistol as shown in Doc's image as well as GRRW print ads from 1976. Other parts are the same such as the filed screw heads, the silver thumb piece, and brightly polished head of the barrel key. The white bone tip of the ramrod is washed out in Doc's image, but it's there.
This is an ad in Lyman’s Muzzleloader’ Handbook, copyright 1976, that illustrated the larger half stock version and a smaller full stock version of GRRW's Trapper Pistol. It is the same image from Doc's website shown above.
I haven't check with Carl to see if detail information on either of the two pistols from the Norton estate are in the record book. But based on the printed material and photographs shown above, P-68 couldn't have been made later than early 1976 and was likely made before that.
I don't have an explanation for the discrepancy in the dates given for Lou's P-69 and my P-68 and P-97. Since there is only one digit separating P-68 and P-69, I would expect Lou's pistol to have been made in 1976 or possibly 1975. It also seems really odd that P-97 and P-68 would have been made in the same year--1979.
The highest serial number I know of for a Trappers Pistol is 100. I don't recall any detail information on it being recorded in the record book, but it was made for Oran Scurlock, publisher of Muzzleloader magazine. I'll post some images of it in my next post.
Phil any more info on this yet ?
Frontiers: Any record of GRRW selling barrel to Browning for the JB Mountain Rifle?
Thanks
Nit Wit
plmeek
40 Cal.
I talked to Carl Walker by phone last night. He said the record book did not include the date when P-69 was finished. He had guessed that it was 1979 from information he had on other guns. I sent him the material I presented above on my P-68 and P-97 pistols for him to consider. I'm waiting for him to look at that material and respond back to my emails.
It is possible that the box and the label on the box that the seller has with P-69 has been erroneously influencing the assumed date of manufacture.
That label, and the box itself, may not be from Green River Rifle Works. I don't know how the company packaged and shipped their pistols, but the original boxes I have seen that rifles had been shipped in were plain, inexpensive cardboard boxes. Address and other information was written on these rifle shipping boxes with a Magic Marker (a Sharpie for the younger generations). It is possible that the label on the box is something that a gun shop created some years after the pistol was manufactured.
Kinda odd he would guess at the date ? Is there any way I can get a picture of the entries for my guns for my records ? He can just lay some blank paper down to cover other entries. I'll reach out to doc and see if he remembers this kind of packaging but ultimately it doesn't matter to me on the date actually the earlier the better in my opinion.
Well have pistol in hand very kool to see it for first time feels like a real well built piece lock was nasty and needed some rework on the tumbler but is working great ! Have match on Sunday so I guess I'll take the blue jacket rifle and the trapper pistol talk about shooting some history !
Attachments
plmeek
40 Cal.
I thought it might be worthwhile to share a little history about GRRW and the Trappers Pistol.
Green River Rifle Works was formed in March 1972. It initially had one employee, Carl Walker, who worked out of Doc White's garage. The initial gun made was the Leman Trade Rifle which proved very popular with hunters and re-enactors. As the demand increased, Doc saw a need to add employees and expand the company.
He leased space in a building in Roosevelt. In 1973, he hired Greg Roberts as General Manager of the company. Greg was responsible with hiring more people and organizing the company and work flow in an effective and efficient manner. Greg also played a key role in introducing new models to the company's line of guns. By 1974, the company was humming and turning out a number of models. John Baird of The Buckskin Report visited GRRW that year and wrote a very favorable article about the company which I have posted on my webpage here. This is an excellent article and gives a good description of the company in 1974, its employees, and its products.
I don't know if Greg was hired early enough to have been involved with Doc to producing the company's first catalog or brochure in 1973 showing the company's offerings, but he may have. In addition to the Leman Trade Rifle from 1972 and the half stock Hawken rifle brought out in 1973, the 1973 brochure listed the Trappers Pistol for the first time.
The 1973 prices are marked out and the new 1974 prices are written in the copy above. The 1973 prices were $79.95 for a finished pistol, $63.95 for a Semi-finished kit, and only $48.00 for an Unassembled kit, fully machined. This catalog was mailed out on October 20, 1973, and it's interesting that there is a handwritten note as shown above stating "Not in Production". I'm not sure what this means because I've seen pictures of another copy of this brochure that is Postmarked March 7, 1973 that doesn't have any such note. I suspect that some Trappers Pistols were produced in 1973, but there might not have been many.
As the descriptions says, the lock on the early Trappers Pistols had a "fully adjustable sear". This and the photo in the brochure shows that they were made with the Bob Kern coil spring lock which had an adjustable sear. The same lock was being used on the Leman Trade Rifles at the time.
A friend and fellow collector sent me these photos of one of these early style Trappers Pistols.
As can be seen, this pistol is .54 caliber and has a 1" by 8" GRRW barrel. The stamp on the top flat is "GREEN RIVER RIFLE WORKS" over "ROOSEVELT, UTAH". This pistol was made by Ed Trump and finished on July 12, 1974, according to Ed's personal record book. His notes in his record book says it is a "Standard Trade Percussion Pistol" and that it was "Sold over counter". Ed Trump ended up making five Trappers Pistols in 1974--this being the last one he made.
It has the Kern coil spring lock mentioned in the 1973 brochure. Except for the location of the rear sight, it appears to be the same configuration as the one pictured in the brochure.
Going back to the note on the brochure above about not being in production, by July 1974, they had apparently made half of their total production of Trappers Pistols or over fifty of them. That's cranking them out.
Not everybody was enamored with this pattern of the Trappers Pistol. In his column in the February 1977 issue of Buckskin Report, Mike Nesbitt wrote this about one of the early Trappers Pistols he tried out, but then passed on.
In an effort to continually improve their products, the Trappers Pistol was redesigned around 1975. GRRW had quit using the Kern lock on their guns and began using the small Siler percussion lock on the standard Trapper Pistol. The grip of the pistol was reconfigured to one that was much more comfortable and a much better fit for most people's hands. This is the pistol shown in the 1976 Catalog and ads that I posted above. The 1975 Catalog says the Trappers Pistol is available "either as a half stock with an 8 inch barrel or a full stock with a 6 inch barrel...Calibers 45, 50, 54, 58 or 58 smooth bore."
I posted examples of the post-1974 Trappers Pistols in both half stock and full stock configuration in the previous post.
This next pistol has the highest serial number I know of for a Trappers Pistol, P-100.
It was made by Neill Fields, like my P-97 above, and is pretty similar with the same trigger guard and full stock, but is a flintlock with a rear sight and a belt hook.
Based on the information I presently have, fifty some Trappers Pistols were made by mid-1974. Another fifteen were apparently made end of 1975. Then in 1976, 1977, and 1978, approximately thirty were made. That's an average of about ten per year. If that pace continued through 1979 and the nine months of operation in 1980, then maybe 110 or 115 Trappers Pistols were made in all. We'll see what turns up in the future, but right now the pace appears to have slowed down the last year and half of operations and little more than 100 were made.
Green River Rifle Works was formed in March 1972. It initially had one employee, Carl Walker, who worked out of Doc White's garage. The initial gun made was the Leman Trade Rifle which proved very popular with hunters and re-enactors. As the demand increased, Doc saw a need to add employees and expand the company.
He leased space in a building in Roosevelt. In 1973, he hired Greg Roberts as General Manager of the company. Greg was responsible with hiring more people and organizing the company and work flow in an effective and efficient manner. Greg also played a key role in introducing new models to the company's line of guns. By 1974, the company was humming and turning out a number of models. John Baird of The Buckskin Report visited GRRW that year and wrote a very favorable article about the company which I have posted on my webpage here. This is an excellent article and gives a good description of the company in 1974, its employees, and its products.
I don't know if Greg was hired early enough to have been involved with Doc to producing the company's first catalog or brochure in 1973 showing the company's offerings, but he may have. In addition to the Leman Trade Rifle from 1972 and the half stock Hawken rifle brought out in 1973, the 1973 brochure listed the Trappers Pistol for the first time.
The 1973 prices are marked out and the new 1974 prices are written in the copy above. The 1973 prices were $79.95 for a finished pistol, $63.95 for a Semi-finished kit, and only $48.00 for an Unassembled kit, fully machined. This catalog was mailed out on October 20, 1973, and it's interesting that there is a handwritten note as shown above stating "Not in Production". I'm not sure what this means because I've seen pictures of another copy of this brochure that is Postmarked March 7, 1973 that doesn't have any such note. I suspect that some Trappers Pistols were produced in 1973, but there might not have been many.
As the descriptions says, the lock on the early Trappers Pistols had a "fully adjustable sear". This and the photo in the brochure shows that they were made with the Bob Kern coil spring lock which had an adjustable sear. The same lock was being used on the Leman Trade Rifles at the time.
A friend and fellow collector sent me these photos of one of these early style Trappers Pistols.
As can be seen, this pistol is .54 caliber and has a 1" by 8" GRRW barrel. The stamp on the top flat is "GREEN RIVER RIFLE WORKS" over "ROOSEVELT, UTAH". This pistol was made by Ed Trump and finished on July 12, 1974, according to Ed's personal record book. His notes in his record book says it is a "Standard Trade Percussion Pistol" and that it was "Sold over counter". Ed Trump ended up making five Trappers Pistols in 1974--this being the last one he made.
It has the Kern coil spring lock mentioned in the 1973 brochure. Except for the location of the rear sight, it appears to be the same configuration as the one pictured in the brochure.
Going back to the note on the brochure above about not being in production, by July 1974, they had apparently made half of their total production of Trappers Pistols or over fifty of them. That's cranking them out.
Not everybody was enamored with this pattern of the Trappers Pistol. In his column in the February 1977 issue of Buckskin Report, Mike Nesbitt wrote this about one of the early Trappers Pistols he tried out, but then passed on.
In an effort to continually improve their products, the Trappers Pistol was redesigned around 1975. GRRW had quit using the Kern lock on their guns and began using the small Siler percussion lock on the standard Trapper Pistol. The grip of the pistol was reconfigured to one that was much more comfortable and a much better fit for most people's hands. This is the pistol shown in the 1976 Catalog and ads that I posted above. The 1975 Catalog says the Trappers Pistol is available "either as a half stock with an 8 inch barrel or a full stock with a 6 inch barrel...Calibers 45, 50, 54, 58 or 58 smooth bore."
I posted examples of the post-1974 Trappers Pistols in both half stock and full stock configuration in the previous post.
This next pistol has the highest serial number I know of for a Trappers Pistol, P-100.
It was made by Neill Fields, like my P-97 above, and is pretty similar with the same trigger guard and full stock, but is a flintlock with a rear sight and a belt hook.
Based on the information I presently have, fifty some Trappers Pistols were made by mid-1974. Another fifteen were apparently made end of 1975. Then in 1976, 1977, and 1978, approximately thirty were made. That's an average of about ten per year. If that pace continued through 1979 and the nine months of operation in 1980, then maybe 110 or 115 Trappers Pistols were made in all. We'll see what turns up in the future, but right now the pace appears to have slowed down the last year and half of operations and little more than 100 were made.
Do we have a rough idea of know quantity at this point ? I'll bet not all of those guns survived I doubt there's more than fifty or so in existence?
plmeek
40 Cal.
I don't think there is anyway of knowing how many Trappers Pistols have survived. I'm sure there are a bunch that are tucked away in closets, drawers, chests, gun safes, etc. that haven't seen the light of day for decades. Most of the GRRW guns I've seen for sale are from an estate or someone too old and/or ill-health to enjoy them anymore. As time goes by, we'll see more of them come to the market. There are some that are being passed down in the family.
I'm sure some have been lost or destroyed. I heard about one pistol that was so heavily modified by a previous owner that it was being restocked. It's not lost, but it isn't in its original form, either. I've seen more GRRW rifles like this, though.
I've seen several rifles that have had the barrel changed in them. A rare few were worn out by shooting, but most were neglected and bores ruined. Some replaced the perfectly fine factory barrel with something else they thought would shoot better. There is a GRRW Hawken I see frequently at the local gun show that belonged to Ron Long. He replaced the factory barrel with one of his own make that was .40 caliber with a fast twist to shoot slugs for target shooting. Another person I know had his factory barrel replaced with a barrel that had a gain twist. These guns still survive, but I wouldn't call them GRRW guns anymore. They're some kind of hybrid now.
I don't really know, but I think your estimate of fifty pistols still in existence is low. I've got no basis for this other than a gut feel.
plmeek
40 Cal.
Nit Wit,
I'm curious as to why you ask this question?
As far as I know, the answer is "no", but I've never researched the JB Mountain Rifle or owned one. Don't know much about them.
"No, Browning bought elsewhere, DOC"
Would be interesting to put together a log of sorts to determine what guns out there maybe a private type of deal where people can record their grrw guns in a new ledger to have a up to date record of what's out there just a thought.
Is it possible to get a copy of the ledger entries for our guns it would be a great benefit to have for the future to keep for our records ?I talked to Carl Walker by phone last night. He said the record book did not include the date when P-69 was finished. He had guessed that it was 1979 from information he had on other guns. I sent him the material I presented above on my P-68 and P-97 pistols for him to consider. I'm waiting for him to look at that material and respond back to my emails.
It is possible that the box and the label on the box that the seller has with P-69 has been erroneously influencing the assumed date of manufacture.
That label, and the box itself, may not be from Green River Rifle Works. I don't know how the company packaged and shipped their pistols, but the original boxes I have seen that rifles had been shipped in were plain, inexpensive cardboard boxes. Address and other information was written on these rifle shipping boxes with a Magic Marker (a Sharpie for the younger generations). It is possible that the label on the box is something that a gun shop created some years after the pistol was manufactured.
plmeek
40 Cal.
You mean you'd ask people to "register" their guns. Surely you jest!
The record book is the private property of Carl's. You would have to ask him.
How much would you be willing to pay? You know you can get a letter for your Colt pistol, or Winchester rifle, or Sharps rifle with the same information you're asking for your GRRW pistol. They charge $50-75 dollars for the letter, IIRC.
I wouldn't mind paying if that's what was required that's up to Carl I guess he could make copies and sell the whole ledger too I guess. Just would be nice to have a copy to go along with the guns would make a nice display to go along. I dont know Carl or have his contact information but if he reads this I guess he can reach out with his opinion on the subject.
Registration you say ! Lol maybe they'll want our assault muzzleloaders too !
