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Modern vs. Antique Muzzle Loaders for Film and TV

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Zac

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Hello,

I am searching for some information from the experts out there in the appearance of modern muzzle loaders and flint lock muzzle loaders for use in film and TV. I plan to be shooting video for visual effects assets soon and my team is wanting to capture the look of weapons from the 17th century. We have been looking into getting our hands on flintlock pistols and rifles but have also been considering just using modern muzzle loaders. My main concern is that the muzzle flash, sparks, and smoke from the modern guns would not match the appearance of those from flintlock guns. I am not worried about the additional flash, sparks, and smoke from the firing mechanism as we will be filming that separately.

Can anyone help explain any differences or similarities between those of modern muzzle loaders vs. those of flintlock muzzle loaders in terms of the muzzle flash, sparks, and smoke? Any information is very much appreciated and please be as detailed as you would like. When finished, I want these effects to be able to match the appearance of flintlock weapons for use in film and TV.
 
Hi Dan! Thank you for your quick response. I agree with you here but budget does also play into this for us which is why we are considering using modern guns we already have access to.

Would you mind explaining any differences you know of between the flintlock and the non-flintlock muzzle flashes that you might would see in a movie that would be obvious to you it is fake?

Thanks
 
Hi Phil, thanks for the idea! I will look into that and see if there is anything happening before our film date.
 
Depends on your buget. You can buy a contemporary flintlock that is comparable to anything historic.

Incidentaly, muzzle flash is identical, but a flint gun has a prime charge flash and smoke that does not occur with any other type arm.
 
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Hi Pete, we are trying to avoid buying these guns as this is not something we would need to own. I already have connections for modern muzzle loaders but am really interested in hearing if anyone knows the differences in appearance of the muzzle flash of modern vs. other historic guns. Thanks!
 
Zac, watch the movie "The Patriot", starring Mel Gibson. It does a good job of portraying flintlocks in action. Big flashes in the pan, and shutting eyes just before firing as they didn't have safety glasses back in the day.
 
Many, but not all, flintlocks make a very fast 'Whooshbang' - a barely noticeable lag in the sequence of shooting. A percussion firearm is virtually instantaneous. The amount of smoke is the same and the muzzle flash is the same, regardless of the age of the firearm - THAT is part of the romance we all enjoy in the shooting of these relics and replica relics.

And just for interest, since you've asked US a question, here's one for you. Did you REALLY mean 17th century? The era of the settling of North America? There were VERY few flintlocks around at those times in the hands of ordinary people. Most guns you are likely to have seen would be matchlocks, an entirely different kettle of fish than any flintlock.
 
TFoley, thanks so much for that info! Very helpful.

I did mean 17th century but that would be because I do not know my history of these weapons as well as I would like. I am very glad you said something! We are wanting the type of muzzle flash that 17th century weapons would have so maybe I am even looking into the wrong type of guns. Are the matchlocks going to give an entirely different type of muzzle flash than the flintlocks? I would love to hear any information you have for me.

Thanks!
 
We have been looking into getting our hands on flintlock pistols and rifles
Where are you located? It is quite possible that there may be a re-enactment group local to where you want to film. These folks show up in period clothes armed and ready to go. Feed them and it may be difficult to get them to leave.

If you are just interested in an extreme closeup of the fireball that occurs at the end of the barrel, you could almost use a ‘pipe’ of some sort with a powder charge in it. If you are looking to create the look of a flintlock being fired, it will be obvious to many that a modern muzzleloader was used if any of the actual gun or sound produced is used, in my opinion.
 
TFoley, thanks so much for that info! Very helpful.

I did mean 17th century but that would be because I do not know my history of these weapons as well as I would like. I am very glad you said something! We are wanting the type of muzzle flash that 17th century weapons would have so maybe I am even looking into the wrong type of guns. Are the matchlocks going to give an entirely different type of muzzle flash than the flintlocks? I would love to hear any information you have for me.

Thanks!


Not a problem, but your movie might need a radical rethink. 17th century America, over 100 years before the Revolution, is not only a remarkably rare time to make a movie about, but getting hold of sufficient matchlock long arms is surely going to give you grief. In case of confusion, the Pilgrim Fathers landed in 1620 - THAT was the 17th century. James town was founded around 1605 - THAT was the 17th century....

The American Revolution happened around the years 1770-ish to 1780-ish - THAT was the 18th century, when flintlocks dominated firearms design and usage.
 
Closed breach muzzleloaders do have a distinctly different muzzle flash and report from my experience. Traditional cap lock rifles and flintlock rifles loose some pressure out of the vent and nipple and are "usually" loaded with lighter charges, so they sound and look different. How tight the patch ball combination or bullet to barrel fit also affect the sound and flash. You can load a modern muzzle loader to look and sound like a traditional ML with regards to flash, smoke and sound.

Movies actually use no bullet and high charges to get a "spectacular" flash the sound is actually added later.

As stated, Matchlocks still boom and smoke. they are more kin to a smoothbore than a Rifled longrifle which to the discerning ear sound different, I only when shot side by side at matches.

All that being said, Most of the General public will not know the difference. But that's just my opinion.

Good luck with your search! I commend you for trying to be as accurate as possible!
 
Not to be a wet blanket, but if you haven’t done enough research to even know what type of firearm you’re talking about, then worrying about duplicating an historically accurate muzzle flash is pretty pointless. While matchlocks may have been prevalent, there were also wheel locks and dog locks around as well, especially later in the 1600’s.

From a practical standpoint, as long as you use real BP and not any of the substitutes you’re going to be “close enough” no matter what you shoot it out of.
 
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Not a problem, but your movie might need a radical rethink. 17th century America, over 100 years before the Revolution, is not only a remarkably rare time to make a movie about, but getting hold of sufficient matchlock long arms is surely going to give you grief. In case of confusion, the Pilgrim Fathers landed in 1620 - THAT was the 17th century. James town was founded around 1605 - THAT was the 17th century....

The American Revolution happened around the years 1770-ish to 1780-ish - THAT was the 18th century, when flintlocks dominated firearms design and usage.
Thank you! We are only filming the muzzle flash to be used in visual effects compositing so the gun itself will not actually be filmed. Just wanting to make sure we get a gun with a muzzle flash that will look like it was from a gun of that time. If a flintlock gun will give us a very similar muzzle flash then that will work just fine.

Does a matchlock muzzle flash look very different from that of flintlock guns?
 
Closed breach muzzleloaders do have a distinctly different muzzle flash and report from my experience. Traditional cap lock rifles and flintlock rifles loose some pressure out of the vent and nipple and are "usually" loaded with lighter charges, so they sound and look different. How tight the patch ball combination or bullet to barrel fit also affect the sound and flash. You can load a modern muzzle loader to look and sound like a traditional ML with regards to flash, smoke and sound.

Movies actually use no bullet and high charges to get a "spectacular" flash the sound is actually added later.

As stated, Matchlocks still boom and smoke. they are more kin to a smoothbore than a Rifled longrifle which to the discerning ear sound different, I only when shot side by side at matches.

All that being said, Most of the General public will not know the difference. But that's just my opinion.

Good luck with your search! I commend you for trying to be as accurate as possible!
Thank you!! This is great to know. We are not worried about sound, just the look of the muzzle flash.
 
The muzzle flash from a black powder gun is different than that burning smokeless. With a smokeless gun the fireball is a pretty intense white ball, and shorter duration. With BP, the fireball is more orange, with lots of accompanying smoke, and quite often a few sparks. You might be able to get the effect you need by loading larger bore cartridges (like the 45-70 Gov't) with black powder.
 
Look up Duelist 1954 on You Tube and watch some of his videos. You will get a lot of views of the firing of flintlocks.

Indeed, contact local reenacting groups in your area. Depending on what you want, you may find the firearms available. If you are novices with the firearms, then they will be doing the loading and firing. My reenacting unit has appeared in several filmings. My gun club has furnished firearms for a documentary on the Corps of Discovery to be used in the filming by a known reenactor. NO live rounds will be fired, blanks only.

You will have the best representation by using a modern replica of a flint lock rifle or matchlock. The modern replica flintlock will look like very much like the period firearm. Using a T/C or CVA modern firearm will be a blemish on your production.

17th Century would likely be match locks. A recent program that has some match lock firing is "Jamestown" on the Public Broadcasting System. I may quibble about some of the historical depictions, but the match locks are pretty much correct.
 
If the only thing you want to show is the muzzle flash and not the entire gun when it fires almost any kind of muzzle loading gun will do.

By 1630, early locks that were similar to the later flintlocks were in use. This date is about the time the transition from the wheel lock and match lock to the "snapping" type of lock. If the lock isn't going to be shown in the film, I suppose this is just academic information.

If the barrel is going to be shown when the gun fires, I think a round muzzle would be a good choice over an octagonal shape. Round muzzles were in use from the matchlock era thru the percussion era of the 19th Century. Octagon shaped muzzles are more associated with rifles which did not exist in the 17th century.

The bottom line is, if the gun is using real black powder, the flash and smoke from any muzzleloading rifle will look the same regardless of the type of ignition the gun uses.
 
I believe the thinking that 17c guns are mostly matchlocks is erroneous, Snaphance,' English' Lock , and toward the end the evolved French flintlock .( Wheellocks would be comparatively rarer ). But given the nature of 17c life on what was essensialy a frontier situation where practicality would prompt obtaining the more costly if handy Flint using locks despite the expense . Rather than the unhandy Matchlocks . Much as I am a devotee of the Matchlock nobody is likley to want to fill me with arrows . The enquirer dosn't seem to know what he wants plus a woefull ignorance of history . He should follow the good advice and recruit re en actors who DO know what there talking about .Mostly. Plus where this happened ? North, South or what nation? could want Miguelets!
Lots of luck with that Rudyard
 
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