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though lifespans have peaked in the US and UK and are now in decline again.

Actually only the "average" life expectancies have begun to decline. This is due to the large numbers of early deaths from drug addiction, and the updated reporting newborn deaths (many countries did not include these if they were less than a certain number of days old, or premature births; this is the reason the US death rate for newborns is so high compared to may other countries).

Lifespans, continue to rise in most of the world as new medical procedures, drugs, better living conditions increase.

Our runaway climate may see us get as warm as 1100 AD maybe as warm as 50 BC

OR, according to new data on sunspot decreases, we may go back into a "mini-ice age" similar to the 1550-1850 era.
 
Actually only the "average" life expectancies have begun to decline. This is due to the large numbers of early deaths from drug addiction, and the updated reporting newborn deaths (many countries did not include these if they were less than a certain number of days old, or premature births; this is the reason the US death rate for newborns is so high compared to may other countries).

Lifespans, continue to rise in most of the world as new medical procedures, drugs, better living conditions increase.



OR, according to new data on sunspot decreases, we may go back into a "mini-ice age" similar to the 1550-1850 era.

Make sure to keep the ergot out of your wheat bread.
 
OR, according to new data on sunspot decreases, we may go back into a "mini-ice age" similar to the 1550-1850 era.

Weather modeling also predicts a mini ice age due to the increase in C02 .
Ice melt from rising temperatures can change ocean current temps and alter weather patterns. Combine that with the increased precipitation from rising temps and caused by C02 and ya we could see a mini ice age But it's not going to happen over night. And we are going to have a lot of flooding and storms before that happens.
It takes salt free water to make an ice age AKA, rain and snow, and a lot of it.
We'll all probably drown before the ice age hits.
 
We'll all probably drown before the ice age hits.

Those that due are more likely going to encounter "sea level rising" from the tectonic plates moving than from melting icecaps. The East Coast of the USA is already dipping downward. It was laughable the number of people who don't know the basic properties of liquids and paid no attention to High School Sophomore Science Class, and thought the rising "sea level" only at the East Coast of the United States was proof of polar melt.

LD
 
Those that due are more likely going to encounter "sea level rising" from the tectonic plates moving than from melting icecaps. The East Coast of the USA is already dipping downward. It was laughable the number of people who don't know the basic properties of liquids and paid no attention to High School Sophomore Science Class, and thought the rising "sea level" only at the East Coast of the United States was proof of polar melt.

LD
Well, you're partial right, Increasing temperatures and melting polar caps will likely increase plate shift. I would also add that there are no convergent plates along the eastern seaboard or in the Atlantic, so the eastern seaboard is not "slipping" into the ocean, and even if it was it plate subduction wouldn't explain global sea level rise.. Also, Sea level rise along the eastern seaboard decreases the farther north you go. Now a person might think that the water would get deeper as you got close to the poles if they were melting. But what's happening is the plate is rebounding from the melting of the last ice age. Remember, tectonic plates are like large sheets of ice floating on water. They can "bob and weave" when acted upon by forces. The plates are the earth's crust "floating" on the mantle. This happens very slowly.
Really we should be seeing a lowering of sea level along the eastern seaboard, imagine how bad sea level rise would be if the north American plate wasn't rebounding.

Either way it doesn't matter, we're all going to suffer the weather consequences.
 
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Lot's of people have different theories and ideas about co2, climate change and global warming, Then there are the deniers.
What i'm really interested is how we are going to solve the problem or how it will solve its self.
Because ignoring the problem or solving the problem will both have a huge impact on growing wheat. And that is something we should all worry about.
 
If we leave the important stuff and spin off in to a global warming, climate change discussion, anti technology farming ( yes I’m as guilty of contributing to that too), Zoni will close the thread. This is a bread thread
 
If we leave the important stuff and spin off in to a global warming, climate change discussion, anti technology farming ( yes I’m as guilty of contributing to that too), Zoni will close the thread. This is a bread thread
We were discussing the intricacies and difficulties of making bread on both a global scale and an artisan scale with relation to the growing of wheat.

Can't make bread if you don't have wheat, and growing wheat can be more difficult than one might think, especially if mother nature doesn't cooperate.

The conversation just looks off to the casual observer, but we are still talking bread. :D
 
If anything, increasing the amount of CO2 in the air will increase the production of wheat.

Wheat uses CO2 and sunlight in the process of photosynthesis to make glucose which they need for them to grow and make among other things, more wheat seeds.

That's about as far as a discussion about CO2 needs to go.

Now, lets get back to baking some of that brown bread. yum. :)
 
Well, you're partial right, Increasing temperatures and melting polar caps will likely increase plate shift. I would also add that there are no convergent plates along the eastern seaboard or in the Atlantic, so the eastern seaboard is not "slipping" into the ocean, and even if it was it plate subduction wouldn't explain global sea level rise
They are already observing sea level rise, On the East Coast of the United States, alone.... Hence the humor that it was from melting ice caps.

LD
 
If anything, increasing the amount of CO2 in the air will increase the production of wheat.

. :)
True, if we grew wheat in a vacuum.
Now does anybody know if B&M brown bread is a seasonal product? I cant find it in the summer.
 
You're right, though it's from "rebounding" which is pretty cool!

LD
Right, but what I see from the rebounding is a southerly tilt of north america which is slowing the sea level rise to the north. But it is still rising, it should be receding. which still presents a sea level rise problem despite the plate rebound. remember sea level rise is global, rebounding just makes it seem like less in some areas. Maybe Zonie is right and it won't affect wheat but, I bet your orange juice is going to get squeezed.
 
Not real crazy about store-bought bread. But it is handy. These heart meds that I'm on say to "Take With Food." So just drop a slice of whole wheat into the toaster while turning the coffeepot on. Then in a few minutes they're both ready and it's breakfast time. 40 to 60 calories depending on the brand. And don't even have to wake up Miss Carol to do it.
 
If anything, increasing the amount of CO2 in the air will increase the production of wheat.

Wheat uses CO2 and sunlight in the process of photosynthesis to make glucose which they need for them to grow and make among other things, more wheat seeds.

That's about as far as a discussion about CO2 needs to go.

Now, lets get back to baking some of that brown bread. yum. :)

That certainly hasn't been the case in the midwest this year, nor was it in 2012, nor was it the case in the Ukraine shortly before their cessation of wheat exports triggered (according to many analysis) the arab spring protests. Having studied plant life quite a bit, I'd like to expand on the idea that CO2 increases wheat (or any) plant growth. Plants are all limited by the least available nutrient -- whether that's CO2, Nitrogen, water, or sunlight. While increasing CO2 can increase the rate of photosynthesis when it is the limiting nutrient, that is almost never the case. Water is probably the limiting nutrient in most environments, and increasing CO2 leads to the loss of the temperature differential between the arctic and the poles that drives the jet stream. That's putting huge "meanders" into the jet stream, which is why we now get stuck in extended super wet or super dry conditions that last much longer than historic norms. That's exactly why the forests where I used to be a forester (Washington state) are now dying, and that's exactly why the midwest farmers have been getting inundated this year, and is why the Atacama desert in Chile experienced unprecedented rainfall and the Amazon rainforest dried out and started burning.

If we assume that CO2 levels are the thermostat that determines our temperature (which has historically been the case) more than most other factors, we're already set to a 7 degree (c) rise above current temps (most scientists doubt humans would survive even half that). I personally don't expect any of us will be here more than 20 years as a result. The oceans -- which are far more sensitive to temperature change than terrestrial environments -- aren't doing well. Most coral reefs are either dead of visibly dying, plankton levels have already dropped 50% since the 1950's, and heat waves are killing sea life in temperate zones all over the globe. The arctic at this very moment is surrounded by peat fires -- something which is unprecedented, and methane bubbling up from the arctic seafloor suggests that this positive feedback loop (with the undoubted potential to end most higher life forms) is already in motion. Look around -- forests in Germany, California, Washington State, Sweden... wherever you look, they're dying, either directly from drought or the resulting forest fires.

I often wonder if I should bring this up or not. Is it better for a doctor to tell a dying man that he only has a few months left, or is it better to let him be surprised by the fact? I tend to come down on the side that the discomfort of foreknowledge helps one to prepare for greater discomfort later. Is it better to just let people cling to the various comforting forms of denial (we might enter a mini ice age?), or is it better to pour water on such theories. I've worked in a climate change lab, and have studied the science for decades now. While I like the idea of a drop in solar activity saving our collective fannies, I don't see it as a likely outcome. The maunder minimum -- which resulted during a period of low solar activity -- resulted in a .5 degree (c) temperature drop. We're already +1.5 degrees and climbing rapidly, so at most it might delay our trip into the oven by a few short years.

And, in accordance with the initial subject of this thread, my wife makes fantastic bread -- sourdough -- baked in our woodstove. For anyone with gluten sensitivities, this older method ("quick rise yeast" didn't come about until the late 1800s -- and makes for a less digestible product) helps to break down that molecule, and makes a damn fine bread!
 
That certainly hasn't been the case in the midwest this year, nor was it in 2012, nor was it the case in the Ukraine shortly before their cessation of wheat exports triggered (according to many analysis) the arab spring protests. Having studied plant life quite a bit, I'd like to expand on the idea that CO2 increases wheat (or any) plant growth. Plants are all limited by the least available nutrient -- whether that's CO2, Nitrogen, water, or sunlight. While increasing CO2 can increase the rate of photosynthesis when it is the limiting nutrient, that is almost never the case. Water is probably the limiting nutrient in most environments, and increasing CO2 leads to the loss of the temperature differential between the arctic and the poles that drives the jet stream. That's putting huge "meanders" into the jet stream, which is why we now get stuck in extended super wet or super dry conditions that last much longer than historic norms. That's exactly why the forests where I used to be a forester (Washington state) are now dying, and that's exactly why the midwest farmers have been getting inundated this year, and is why the Atacama desert in Chile experienced unprecedented rainfall and the Amazon rainforest dried out and started burning.

If we assume that CO2 levels are the thermostat that determines our temperature (which has historically been the case) more than most other factors, we're already set to a 7 degree (c) rise above current temps (most scientists doubt humans would survive even half that). I personally don't expect any of us will be here more than 20 years as a result. The oceans -- which are far more sensitive to temperature change than terrestrial environments -- aren't doing well. Most coral reefs are either dead of visibly dying, plankton levels have already dropped 50% since the 1950's, and heat waves are killing sea life in temperate zones all over the globe. The arctic at this very moment is surrounded by peat fires -- something which is unprecedented, and methane bubbling up from the arctic seafloor suggests that this positive feedback loop (with the undoubted potential to end most higher life forms) is already in motion. Look around -- forests in Germany, California, Washington State, Sweden... wherever you look, they're dying, either directly from drought or the resulting forest fires.

I often wonder if I should bring this up or not. Is it better for a doctor to tell a dying man that he only has a few months left, or is it better to let him be surprised by the fact? I tend to come down on the side that the discomfort of foreknowledge helps one to prepare for greater discomfort later. Is it better to just let people cling to the various comforting forms of denial (we might enter a mini ice age?), or is it better to pour water on such theories. I've worked in a climate change lab, and have studied the science for decades now. While I like the idea of a drop in solar activity saving our collective fannies, I don't see it as a likely outcome. The maunder minimum -- which resulted during a period of low solar activity -- resulted in a .5 degree (c) temperature drop. We're already +1.5 degrees and climbing rapidly, so at most it might delay our trip into the oven by a few short years.

And, in accordance with the initial subject of this thread, my wife makes fantastic bread -- sourdough -- baked in our woodstove. For anyone with gluten sensitivities, this older method ("quick rise yeast" didn't come about until the late 1800s -- and makes for a less digestible product) helps to break down that molecule, and makes a damn fine bread!

Has not climate always changed, from one extreme to the other and everything in between, due to natural causes?
What makes so many of us skeptical of the so called " man caused climate change " movement is that so many of the promoters of that theory use it as a vehicle to promote socialist and communist political policies, and the fact that they have been caught fudging the numbers so many times.
 
Seems I just saw on the news the US park service is taking those signs down in Glacier National park about the glaciers being gone by 2020.
We have to get a lot warmer to match 1000 AD when Greenland was warm England had Vineyards. And ‘horse bread’ was a popular bread choice.
We would have to get a lot warmer to be as warm as 100 bc to 100 ad. Lack of rain made wheat dear in the Mediterranean but Spain Egypt and the Crimea feed the Roman world. Sour dough bread in large round loads was the favorite then.
We had a big warming spat tenthousand years ago followed by a bit of cooling then a real toaster for two thousand years between seven and fife thousand years.... I wonder if that was the earths birth pains of civilization. Flat breads seem to be popular as wheat and barley growing spread from the near east to China and Germany.
Northren Europeans got sick of fighting weeds in their wheat fields and just went ahead and grew the weed.... rye.
Earths greatest bio diversity was seen when co2 was ten times higher then now, but bread doesn’t seem to have been a thing then.
Ice corre the world over seem to indicate co2 starts to increase after general warming trend starts not before. Current warming started about 1750-1800.
Hottest recorded temps ever don’t help much when thermometers were invented during the mini ice age.
I noted an alarming trend in our schools. Fifth graders are taller and bigger then first graders. If this trend continues we will all be smashed by giants!!!!! I guess we could blame white bread.
 
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Has not climate always changed, from one extreme to the other and everything in between, due to natural causes?
What makes so many of us skeptical of the so called " man caused climate change " movement is that so many of the promoters of that theory use it as a vehicle to promote socialist and communist political policies, and the fact that they have been caught fudging the numbers so many times.

It's absolutely true that the climate has always changed due to natural causes (though that typically occurs much slower than the current changes), but that does not in any way imply that we cannot change it ourselves as we are now doing. That's like suggesting that "people always die from natural causes, so it won't matter if I shoot someone". Sure -- there may very well be opportunists whom are hoping to use this to push their agenda, but that doesn't make the underlying data any less credible. In most places outside the US, there is no left/right divide when it comes to climate change. IMHO, that's a creation of the corporately controlled US media. My very conservative great uncle, an illinois farmer born in 1913 and apparently unaware the concern for climate change was now a partisan issue, said to me "Don't let anyone pull the wool over your eyes, things are definitely getting warmer!"

It's not like the effects of these changes are hidden from us. Chances are that no matter where you live, you're seeing changes if they haven't already hit you on the head. If you're anywhere near the ocean, you're see changes that have not happened in the time that humans walked the earth until now.

Another thing to keep in mind... many of the people suggesting that climate change is part of a communist plot are on television and mainstream media -- who are all owned and/or funded by people who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. Exxon famously funded such views to the tunes of millions of dollars (after their own scientists told them to prepare for 4-5 degree temperature increases by 2050). Where do you think that money has gone? If you watch television, you've seen it in action. Most of that money was spent in the US, and not surprisingly, that's where most of the climate change denial exists. I've watched it go from "there's no such thing", to "well, maybe it's changing a little", to "it's *natural*". Meanwhile refugees are pouring from Africa and Syria (where a 9 year drought started the war) into Europe, from central america (where repeated crop failures have forced people to leave) into the US.
 
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