Can a frizzen be too hard?

Question: Can a frizzen be too hard in order to spark the best ? I know hardness is tempered so the metal in not brittle, but can it be too hard to spark the best? I ask this question because I have a frizzen that was hardened and tempered, but a poor sparker. The lock is a very good lock, with plenty of main spring energy. The frizzen can't be cut with a file, it just slides right over it. The frizzen spring is not real strong, but I have been told by a very good long time rifle/ lock builder that a good flintlock should spark even with out a frizzen spring.
Flintlocklar

Yes it can be. I would try tempering it in the kitchen oven at 375 for an hour, check the oven temp with a second thermometer. I also draw the foot and pan region to a light blue, particularly around the pivot hole as this can easily break if it is too thin. When I do this I suspend the face of the frizzen in a pan of water to prevent heating this too much.

You can also try lightly grinding the face removing a few thousandths as the surface might have lost some carbon during the hardening process.

I might also add that it could be worth sending it back to the manufacturer for work if that is an option.

Maybe the problem is the flint.

Hi Larry,
Yes a frizzen can be too hard so the flint won't cut into it creating no incendiary shards of metal. Also, during hardening the frizzen face may have lost carbon on the surface. The first thing to try is to grind a tiny bit off the face to see if you have a dead surface layer. If that does not reslove the problem, try tempering the frizzen in your kitchen oven at 375 degrees and if that doesn't solve it, temper a little hotter say 390-400 degrees. A good flintlock will create sparks without a frizzen spring, however, you want some resistance from the frizzen spring so the flint can bite into it even when covered in fouling or dull. When I start to tune a lock, I want the force (measured with a spring or digital scale like those used for luggage or trigger pull) to open the frizzen to be about 30% of the force needed to pull the flintcock from rest to full cock. That is typically, 3-5 pounds. I then work from there to balance the springs (main and frizzen) to get best performance from a particular lock.

dave

billraby said:

Maybe the problem is the flint.

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Positive it is not the flint as I have tried many and they are good "sharp" English Black flints.
Thanks for the thought
Flintlocklar

44-henry said:

Yes it can be. I would try tempering it in the kitchen oven at 375 for an hour, check the oven temp with a second thermometer. I also draw the foot and pan region to a light blue, particularly around the pivot hole as this can easily break if it is too thin. When I do this I suspend the face of the frizzen in a pan of water to prevent heating this too much.

You can also try lightly grinding the face removing a few thousandths as the surface might have lost some carbon during the hardening process.

Click to expand...

The frizzen was hardened and tempered. Properly?? I Dunno! I always try to keep my frizzens cleaned of chatter marks by surface grinding a smidge, so if carbon was removed from the surface that has been eliminated. I wasn't sure about the fact it could be too hard for proper spark. Thanks for your reply
Flintlocklar

dave_person said:

Hi Larry,
Yes a frizzen can be too hard so the flint won't cut into it creating no incendiary shards of metal. Also, during hardening the frizzen face may have lost carbon on the surface. The first thing to try is to grind a tiny bit off the face to see if you have a dead surface layer. If that does not reslove the problem, try tempering the frizzen in your kitchen oven at 375 degrees and if that doesn't solve it, temper a little hotter say 390-400 degrees. A good flintlock will create sparks without a frizzen spring, however, you want some resistance from the frizzen spring so the flint can bite into it even when covered in fouling or dull. When I start to tune a lock, I want the force (measured with a spring or digital scale like those used for luggage or trigger pull) to open the frizzen to be about 30% of the force needed to pull the flintcock from rest to full cock. That is typically, 3-5 pounds. I then work from there to balance the springs (main and frizzen) to get best performance from a particular lock.

Click to expand...

Dave, You always have good experienced advice. I have never really tried to "balance" a frizzen with the main spring. I just kind of wing it or ignore. This gun's sparking issue does need to be resolved cuz my son in law has taken a big shine to shooting it in competition. It is a 44" X 1" (54 cal) Golden Age barreled 10 pounder I made in the 70s. Good sparking was an issue from the beginning, with two more frizzens added since. The lock is a Haddaway (not sure of spelling) After years of use the internal parts sill look and work like new. I know the lock is doing well, but balance and proper frizzen hardness needs to be addressed.
Thanks
Larry

Hi Larry,
Haddaway locks were and are good locks. I don't know if he tuned them before sale but they certainly are good raw material. Your lock might just need a stronger frizzen spring, which you can create by heating it red hot, opening the bend just a little, and then hardening and tempering the spring. One option to try as a test is to place a small wedge of wood inside the leaves of the spring to give it more tension on the frizzen and see if that improves sparking.

dave

Larry (Omaha) said:

I Dunno! I always try to keep my frizzens cleaned of chatter marks by surface grinding a smidge, so if carbon was removed from the surface that has been eliminated.

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If the Haddaway frizzens were only case or surfaced hardened, I wonder if your process to keep ‘frizzens cleaned of chatter marks by surface grinding a smidge’ has removed the case hardening. When you are checking for hardness with a file, are you checking tha actual face of the frizzen that you have been ‘surface grinding a smidge’?

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SDSmlf said:

If the Haddaway frizzens were only case or surfaced hardened, I wonder if your process to keep ‘frizzens cleaned of chatter marks by surface grinding a smidge’ has removed the case hardening. When you are checking for hardness with a file, are you checking tha actual face of the frizzen that you have been ‘surface grinding a smidge’?

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It is very possible that the original frizzen was case hardened, I just don't remember and am trying to go forward now.

Absolutely, why would someone check where the flint does not strike? I realize you are looking for error here and thanks for that.
Flintlocklar

That's very interesting on the balancing spring tension Dave. If you were to loop a gauge on both the cock and the frizzen, where would you take the measurement (location makes a big difference in a long lever)? At the flint in the jaws, and where it first contacts the frizzen for instance?