• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades

Average Pull Weight Of Lever Or Trigger On A Matchlock

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
336
Reaction score
15
The title pretty much explains a question I and perhaps others have had.

I am curious of those in the membership here who have had the opportunity to move the levers or triggers on actual historical examples, as well as anyone here that would care to share their experiences with store bought reproductions?

I assume there would be some loss of pull weight on aged historical models and that there would also be a difference in pull weight of a lever vs. a trigger.

Anyway since I plan to try making my own springs I would like to know. I have tried to make one spring already but it failed and snapped during a heated bending stage, but I will keep at it and try to make more.
 
I can't say anything about reproductions, but most originals have very light springs in them.
The ones with the long tiller have a bit heavier spring, but those with triggers are V light .
Snap-locks have very light pulls, Mine's just a few ounces .

Good luck with the springs!

R.
 
I cheated and used a coil spring.
Actually it was all I could find at the time.
Face bigsmyl.gif
 
What's all this talk of springs? Nobody going proper oldschool and using a one-piece lever/serpentine? :p
 
I get you, was just a joke anyway. I have seen examples of matchlocks from late medieval/early modern Europe that had literally just a 'z' or 's' shaped piece of metal, with one end holding the match and the other serving as the trigger. You pull on the trigger end, and it pivots the other end down to the touch hole. Very basic.
 
Oh, OK. This last winter was my first venture into Matchlocks and I'm still not savvy enough to realize when someone is pulling my leg.

No harm meant. The kind of gun I'm talking about was basically the late-medieval transition phase between hand cannons and the type of matchlock you're describing. The type of mechanism you showed was more prevalent into the early modern, which is really when matchlocks saw their heyday (at least in Europe. Asia on the other hand...)
 
I made a common lock M lock in 1975 it has just a musket size scear spring but has never failed to operate . I've made the long scear locks and the' trigger lock' The traditional springs are just one flats spring with a slot in the lock plate to admit the tennon of the spring being a firm fit to admit secureing the spring. If loose a small' feil' or pin will secure it to the plate . For the snap matchlock the spring need only be light since its just flicking your coal into the pan . for target use this is the best sort eliminating the wobbly let off since the trigger is so light . Look up ' Mary Rose' Veneitian examples it is clear that the Japonees snap locks copy the Veneition types only seemingly copied a broken stock example trimmed off. But the copiers didn't realise so kept on making these with little evolution other than the styles & sizes as suited them . compare the two and this is apparent , except the Japonees couldn't make steel springs or cut screw threads odd as this seems given their sword makeing ability .
Rudyard
 
The originals I am most familiar with are Japanese Tanagashima Matchlocks. They often have BRONZE mainsprings of the normal shape, though sometimes they have Bronze flat coiled springs. Very light springs and trigger pulls.

One U.S. Team Member brought me his newly completed repro of an early English Matchlock at the World Championships in 1998. It had a really bad trigger in it, though. The reason for it was it copied exactly the axe shaped sear and "sear catch" that looked like the top of a Heart. When I saw that, I thought to myself, "Exactly WHAT I am supposed to do to lighten and improve that trigger pull?" The best I could come up with was round the axe edge of the sear, but not so much that it would not hold half cock. The shooter was disappointed at first because it was not the near miracle I had pulled off on his original Smith Carbine, but I showed him and explained about the lock parts and it was all I could do at the time. Of course once he won Gold for the Individual Repro Matchlock Match a few days later, it wasn't so bad after all.

Gus
 
Dear Gus Interesting to hear of your prowess with matchlocks . I confess I have never come across a half cock on a snap matchlock .I made numbers of varient snap matchlocks but considered the Venietion' Mary Rose' type the best since it gave you a shoulder stock, pistol grip, & Peep, sight plus a trigger where moderns expect to find them . I am out of touch with the International Scene . last I heard they seemed to want only the Japoneese types in the' Tanagashima' event I questioned this 'cheek stock or Portugeese only' type But the Portugees likely had some broken Venitian Snap M lock but sawed off the damage so it had the now familiar cheek stock . . The whiley Portegees likley traded for a supply of Giesha girls and sailed off laughing at the trade . .Then Japan shuts out the rest of the world till the door is opened by cannon fire . . a look at the Venitian compared to the umpteen Japonees variants speaks volumes as to this clear resemblance Axe like half cocks sounds like the Miguelet ' Patilla' lock was adapted but NO half cock can much improve the saftey of a matchlock . It must have passed inspection so fine . Good work on your part . Rudyard
 
Dear Gus Interesting to hear of your prowess with matchlocks . I confess I have never come across a half cock on a snap matchlock .I made numbers of varient snap matchlocks but considered the Venietion' Mary Rose' type the best since it gave you a shoulder stock, pistol grip, & Peep, sight plus a trigger where moderns expect to find them . I am out of touch with the International Scene . last I heard they seemed to want only the Japoneese types in the' Tanagashima' event I questioned this 'cheek stock or Portugeese only' type But the Portugees likely had some broken Venitian Snap M lock but sawed off the damage so it had the now familiar cheek stock . . The whiley Portegees likley traded for a supply of Giesha girls and sailed off laughing at the trade . .Then Japan shuts out the rest of the world till the door is opened by cannon fire . . a look at the Venitian compared to the umpteen Japonees variants speaks volumes as to this clear resemblance Axe like half cocks sounds like the Miguelet ' Patilla' lock was adapted but NO half cock can much improve the saftey of a matchlock . It must have passed inspection so fine . Good work on your part . Rudyard

Hi Rudyard,

When I was chosen to be the U.S. Team Armourer in early '96, I must confess I had NO background in working triggers on Matchlock guns, let alone any kind of repair work on them. I had many years of working triggers and general repairs primarily on UnCivil War gun locks and some military flintlocks at that time, as well as some work on revolvers and "civilian" flint and percussion locks. I was chosen primarily for those things and the fact I knew what a good trigger was from years of working Modern Triggers in modern NM competition and was used to working in high stress situations in National Competitions to get the shooters back on the line as soon as possible after their gun went down, no matter what that required. I earnestly hoped I could help the Team, even though I knew what I didn't know at the time. As it turned out, in every case I was unfamiliar with a gun, the Team was blessed with someone who had worked on or had at least known something about a gun that needed a repair or adjustment. So I could pick their brains as well and that was immensely helpful.

Though I had seen original Tanagashima guns shot in the 1980 World Championships at Quantico, I had never worked on one before a Team Member brought one up at the 1996 World Championships. However at that more recent World Championship, I mainly adjusted Serpentines to better hit the center of the pan and a couple other things. The owner and another Team Member helped me disassemble it and offered what they knew about the guns, so it was a "Team" coordination that worked out well enough to do what the shooters needed done. I was amazed at what the original Japanese gunsmiths could do with Bronze to make springs.

At the '98 World Championship, and on the lock I did the "minimal" trigger work I could do, I was surprised to see that matchlock did not have a screw in the internal lock parts. As I recall, he said it was some kind of early English Matchlock. The parts were held in place with tapered pins that had a flat on them and that flat and how the pins were placed in the lock aligned the parts. I don't know if that can help identify the Lock or not? That Team Member was what we called a Member of the "Far Western" group of shooters who came from around the Portland, OR and Seattle, WA (state) region. One of those Team Members was a really good builder of later Percussion Half Stock Target Rifles. He wasn't available when I had to do the work for the shooter, but I did coordinate with him on the Lock after I had worked it and before the shooter shot it in the Matches and he agreed what I did was about all that could be done.

So I don't want to leave the impression that I had any real prowess on matchlocks then or now, it was just that I could do what the Team really needed and knew enough about just how far I could go on working them without screwing anything up.

Gus
 
Dear Gus I too was at Quantico that year the first one shot in the US. I had two flint guns of my make being shot by two UK clay shooters .There I met Team armourer Willis Boitnot, Marge Pepiot writer and Don Getz ,Hershall House who had tables plus Herman Marker .I doubt the UK team had as much as a spare spring . We where suitably impressed . You will remember the Japonees team who could only have their Matchlocks . One shot off a huge cannon like piece all attired & using whalebone vent pics . I wasn't part of the team just went on a standby flight & whim . Afterwards I hitched to Gallopolis .So I rang Bill Large in Ironton He says" Are you going to the R vous ?' .I was a member so I went to the first Shawnee just Porky togs so I camped outside the gate & went in next day met Phil Cravener who didn't shun .'Porkies' neither did I after doing 17 Easterns. He lent me a Capote so I stayed for the feast & Curly Gostomski I later stocked in the whites trade guns and bought barrels ect .Greenville was a base for summers .Handy to F ship, later Marietta became my base Got Commissioned as' Lt Mork' by Brer Lizard up at a R vous near Battle Creek mostly I think due to my ability to recite poems and my wit. .Bit of ' international flavour' I suppose . My principle contribution at our woods walks we where famous for was as 'Confusion" deluding the ever wary shooters signalling to non existant snipers or stepping over trip wires that didn't exist Squinting up trees , that sort of thing. Happy days Regards Rudyard
 
Dear Gus I too was at Quantico that year the first one shot in the US. I had two flint guns of my make being shot by two UK clay shooters .There I met Team armourer Willis Boitnot, Marge Pepiot writer and Don Getz ,Hershall House who had tables plus Herman Marker .I doubt the UK team had as much as a spare spring . We where suitably impressed .

Dear Rudyard,

Though I had shot at the Nationals at Friendship for four years on the Primitive Range prior to the World Championships at Quantico, my eyesight (especially with prescription lenses in period spectacles) was never good enough for me to have won there, let alone in International Competition. So I worked those matches at Quantico as a Volunteer.

Since we didn't know until the last minute I could take leave to Volunteer at the Match, I "reported in" on the Monday prior to the weekend the matches were to be shot and stopped by Range Control to see where the Volunteers were working. They told me the only one who had checked in was Major Jim Land, USMC (ret) and I think Executive Secretary of the NRA at the time and he was already downrange at Range 1. When I got down to Range 1, I found him digging in the dirt with his back to me. As I approached, I called out, "My God that's a sight I'd never thought I'd see, a U.S. Marine Major digging holes in the ground at the Range! What the (Heck) are you doing, Sir?" He turned around, recognized me and warmly welcomed me. (I had been a Sergeant when Jim was still on Active Duty and knew him well from there and from his competing in North South Skirmish Association National Matches.)

I asked him where were all the other Volunteers? He frowned and said, "We're it. There was supposed to be over 100 Volunteers show up to work this past weekend, but nobody showed up." I grinned and said, "Well, you have me from today through the end of the Matches, as I just got leave to work them. Might be a bit difficult, but we will have to see about getting it done." The look of gratitude on his face was immense. So we continued to dig holes to set pieces of pipe in the ground to hold the target frames at 25 and 50 Meters. (On active duty, we didn't shoot at those ranges, so there were no pre-set pipes at those distances.)

Later on that day, we were checking how to paste the targets on the frame. Jim told me the target paste we used on regular and NM Targets, left too many bumps and wrinkles for a World Match and he wanted really smooth Targets, but didn't know how to do it. I asked him if he ever tried the Spray Adhesive, then sold in Office Supply Stores? So off I went on the first of many trips all over the place and this time to the local Office Store out in town and bought the only four cans they had. Worked great, but it didn't take long to run out. (We wound up getting a LOT more of the cans from all over Northern Virginia before we finished the targets. Grin.) Jim then told me I was the "Official Crisis Control SNCOIC (Staff Non Commissioned Officer in Charge) of the World Matches" and I wound up also being the Liaison to the rest of the Marine Command and the large crowd of NSSA shooters, who did finally begin to show up the evening of the following day.

Of course the Command at Quantico was well used to running major shooting competitions, including the Armed Forces Intramural Military Rifle Matches, but no one had ever run an International Muzzle Loading Match before. As each new problem/challenge came up and we got it resolved, Jim and I kept saying to each other, "I sure hope the Shooters never realize what a Lash Up getting ready for this thing has been." GRIN!! Fortunately, everyone from the Commanding Officer on down, cooperated hugely with us and that helped a lot. The NSSA Shooters were all veterans of running the Huge Spring and Fall National Championships, so that made things immensely easier, even though those matches were a bit different from International Matches.

I was informed we had a problem on the Trap Range and when I got there, they informed me the electrically operated Trap Machines would not work for one stage of International Muzzleloading Competition. After they explained it to me, I checked with an NSSA Member I knew who was an electrician. After five minutes, he came out to his truck and I asked him if he could fix it? He said, "Sure, as soon as someone gets me a 35 cent part." I quickly pulled a dollar out of wallet and offered it and he grinned and said he already had one in his truck. When I retired from Quantico in 1997, we were still occasionally using the "fix" he had done 17 years earlier.

Though we worked up to 16 hour days, we did manage to get everything set up in time for the Matches.

Rudyard, since you were with the UK Clay Shooters, do you know the name of the rather short gentleman who almost always wore a touring/drivers soft cap? We had enough things going well, that I wanted to watch the Clay Shooters for a little while, so I was there a few minutes before they began shooting. This gentleman was dressed in nice wool sporting jacket, tie, trousers, and that cap. Before the Shooters took their firing points, he almost marched out to the first firing point, did an about face, flourished/doffed his cap and said, "Good morning everyone!" Then he put his cap back on and marched back. I looked at a couple of NSSA Shooters near me and said, "Now THAT'S Class!" Turned out I could only watch for a little while before another crisis came up, but I enjoyed watching the shooters compete for a short while.

Things were going well enough I decided to wear my moccasins, buckskin trousers, 18th century shirt and the Marine version of the Rifleman's Cap on the last day of the shoot. This was after Herschel House and other Riflemen dressed in Riflemen garb had fired an exhibition Team Match the day before. Though it was not yet legal to use reproduction arms, they scored high enough they would have won the Gold Medal, had reproductions been allowed. So I decided to "get in the spirit of things" myself the last day.

Not very long before it was time to award medals, Donald "Bucky" Malson came up and grabbed me and said Jim Land needed me again. I couldn't imagine what for as shooting was almost over. When we found Jim, he and Bucky told me I was going to be in EVERY Winner's Picture in Muzzle Blasts Magazine. I looked at them suspiciously, while waiting for the other shoe to drop, because I thought they were up to something, as of course I had not competed. That's when they told me I would stand behind each Gold Medal Winner on the platform while holding the flag of his/her country as he/she was awarded their medals. So I indeed was in a lot of the pictures in Muzzle Blasts, but mostly you can only see my Rifleman's style Marine Hat behind the Winners.

After I came down off the platform for the last time and put the last flag away, Bucky told me Jim needed me one last time. I looked at Bucky, grinned and said, "The Shoot is over, what possible problem could there be now?" That's when Jim awarded me a Gold Medal for my efforts as the Crisis Control SNCOIC and informed me it had been authorized by the US Team, the NRA and Val Forgett, Jr., who had paid for all the medals.

Good memories.

Regards, Gus
 
Gus,

I have really enjoyed yours and Rudyard's discourse in this thread!
Have known Rudyard a good while, and it was he who inspired my first matchlock. (Back in the 90's)
We both used to visit the same old gunshop in York, but that was in the 70's.


I
 
Pleased to hear you liked the discourse Pukka. I wasn't with the team as a member just camped opposite from their Motel in Fredricksburg then camped on the range the first day. as I allways travelled on the ecconomy plan ' Starlight Hotel' sort of thing .I was swinging a billy next morning when a man came & said "Sir You cant light a fire " so I brewed up & put it out . The shoot seem to run OK . I was impressed that the US team had an Armourer, Doctor & Press (Marge Pepiot) Cant recall the Frontiersmen but do recall that huge Japonees hand cannon and the accurate Civil war Cannon shooting . I should know the Short Gentleman who impressed you with his style Could be Peter Jauques don't recall his hieght . Sounds like you where the real hero of the match. . Hershall gave me a' Corps of Kentucky riflemen' patch .Years later I got to know him well from the Easterns and Frank who was a 'Widowmaker' ex' Red hat' more so. Lizzards ' Corps of Forest Grunge ' would fit us , if I wore a kilt . as' Confussion 'in our woods walks aided by Ed,s ' Green Hats' of equally attired worthies . Ide say you well earned your medal Regards Rudyard
 

Latest posts

Back
Top