New member, with first BP long gun

Howdy all -- new here. As mentioned just now in the "BP substitute" thread, I've been a cap & ball revolver addict for going on three years now and it's the most fun I've had with any shooting activity in my almost-fifty years of shooting and messing with fine guns. I have and enjoy a lot of Uberti Colt and Remington replicas, including all the Colt models, and now have about a half-dozen genuine Colts, 2nd and 3rd Gen 1851s, 1860s, and a Dragoon.

A week ago, I finally just had to get into the long gun BP game. After much shopping and comparing, I purchased a new Pedersoli Traditional Hawken in .50, and I really love it. I'm surprised you can buy such a beautiful and well-appointed Hawken, with Pedersoli quality, for about $630 (Cabela's). I've already had it to the range once and loaded/fired about 50 rounds. Started with .490 Hornady RB with .015 pre-lubed patches. CCI #11 caps. All of my loads went "bang" and the first 10 or 15 actually threw what I thought were "ok" groups at 50 yards (3-4" -- far from the 1/2-minute groups I've gotten from my Remington 700 .223 but I was Ok with it for a first effort from a percussion rifle with open sights). Then things went downhill at 100 yds! I wasn't able to get what I would call a "group" at that distance, and I was shooting from a Caldwell rest set on a concrete bench. I apparently have much to learn.

My first loads were with 60 grains of Triple 7 ffg -- given the 1:48 twist in the Traditional Hawken, next outing (hopefully in a few days) I plan to drop that to 50 gns and see what kind of groups I get. Any thoughts from the crowd on other obvious things I should try?

Also, the .490 ball/.015 patch combo seemed VERY hard to ram home -- as in, holding the big rifle between my knees and using both hands on the rod, just above the muzzle, and repeat/repeat until the ball was firmly seated. Is this level of effort normal, or should I try .010 patches?

All suggestions welcome for a long gun black powder newbie. My only restriction is that I ONLY intend to use Triple 7 BP substitute. Zero interest in actual black powder or Pyrodex. Also, I'd prefer to stay with patched-ball loads, rather than conicals of any kind.

I know that finding the "magic load" and all is a big part of the fun of these rifles and I look forward to the journey. Thanks -- look forward to your wisdom!

That hard of ram may be tearing the patch. Back off to a 010 and it should ease the ram. Should pretty snug with no grating. 50 should shoot well with 72-75 grains. May want to switch to 3f. My experience is 2f is 60 up and shotgun but usually the right measure of any should work. All guns shoot best with what they eat the best so all you can do is start at a mid range and experiment till you find the sweet spot. A good starting point is the cal plus half. Puts 50cal at 75 but it might shoot a bit more or less the best. I also use sound to determine too rich or too lean. It's been my experience that a plopping pow is too lean and a belching boom is too rich. I've found somewhere in the cracking pow is the right zone. Of course the larger the cal the lower the sound. When I built my TC Hawken some 40 odd years ago 70 grains and a 440/010 would put 8 of 10 in 2" bull at 100 yards.

You have to remember, even with a solid rest, shooting 100 yards with open iron sights is going to be difficult.

Even with optics, If your groups are 3-4” at 50, you are looking at best 6-8” at 100 yards. You put the variable of iron sights and you are adding a few more inches to that spread.

Just like Cartridge shooting/reloading focus on getting you group as tight at 25 yards before you shoot 100 yards.

There are a lot of variables you can play with to find that “magic load”. Powder type, powder volume, patch weave, patch thickness, ball size, ball alloy, Lube type, amount of lube etc... by stating you only want to use triple 7 you limit your options to finding the magic load. Just like in reloading for Cartridge rifles, different powders have different powder burn rates, which make a difference.

Good luck!! BP long guns are great fun!!

Thanks for the suggestions. Going to try the .010 patches to ease loading, but then that might work against accuracy. I'll experiment with the variables -- powder charge and patches. I like a challenge.

That barrel will need shooting in yet before it gets better.
New sharp rifling can cut the patch just enough to cause a jet of gas to throw the ball at the muzzle.
The twist is also a little quick for ball.

Are you swabbing between shots? You should for consistent results. That 50 gr. charge might be a bit light to give good groups with subsitute powders. Try real black. Check your barrel lugs, they should not bind but have space for some loosness. Where the forestock of your rifle is setting on the rest can change the dynamics and affect grouping. It should rest about where you hold when shooting offhand or at the balance point. Keep shooting, good luck.

Yes I've read a lot about the 1:48 twist for PB, but much of what I read suggests it can produce good accuracy if you don't push the powder volume too high. And as for the "shooting in" part, I never need an excuse to do more shooting! Thanks.

Gregory Mitchell said:

Howdy all -- new here. 0 patches?

All suggestions welcome for a long gun black powder newbie.

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Welcome to the forum, and the world of BP rifle shooting.
You gave us lots of information, but I did not see anything about patch lube. I have never shot any BP sub, but in my real BP shooting, a good slippery patch lube with a clean bore makes worlds of difference for that firm, but smooth downward RR stroke.
Flintlocklar

Gregory Mitchell said:

Yes I've read a lot about the 1:48 twist for PB, but much of what I read suggests it can produce good accuracy if you don't push the powder volume too high. And as for the "shooting in" part, I never need an excuse to do more shooting! Thanks.

Click to expand...

I have a Golden Age brand (Douglas Barrel Co.), 44" barrel, 54 cal, that uses, .535 RB, .018 pillow ticking. The 100 yard powder charge is 100 grains and it has won some matches.
Flintlocklar

In reading your description of loading I don't see a reference to using a short ball starter to get the ball started. Are you using one? On most of my rifles I use a short starter with a knob on the end. I smack the patched ball smartly with the starter to get it below the muzzle and then use the starter to get the ball down the barrel about 6 inches before using the ramrod. It makes loading with a tight patch much easier.

Smaller ball.

Larry (Omaha) said:

Welcome to the forum, and the world of BP rifle shooting.
You gave us lots of information, but I did not see anything about patch lube. I have never shot any BP sub, but in my real BP shooting, a good slippery patch lube with a clean bore makes worlds of difference for that firm, but smooth downward RR stroke.
Flintlocklar

Click to expand...

Yes, my first outing was with .015 PRE-LUBED patches, Ox-Yoke.

Kansas Jake said:

In reading your description of loading I don't see a reference to using a short ball starter to get the ball started. Are you using one? On most of my rifles I use a short starter with a knob on the end. I smack the patched ball smartly with the starter to get it below the muzzle and then use the starter to get the ball down the barrel about 6 inches before using the ramrod. It makes loading with a tight patch much easier.

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Yes I used a short-starter -- took a pretty sharp rap to get them started past the crown, then I used the 4" side of the short starter, then went to the ram rod. thanks.

I shoot a couple of 1/48 twist Hawken. I dropped my powder to around 38-40 grains and my groups shrunk by 50%. You're doing it right.

Gregory Mitchell said:

Yes I've read a lot about the 1:48 twist for PB, but much of what I read suggests it can produce good accuracy if you don't push the powder volume too high. And as for the "shooting in" part, I never need an excuse to do more shooting! Thanks.

Click to expand...

Gregory Mitchell said:

Yes I've read a lot about the 1:48 twist for PB, but much of what I read suggests it can produce good accuracy if you don't push the powder volume too high. And as for the "shooting in" part, I never need an excuse to do more shooting! Thanks.

Click to expand...

A 1:48 twist is more than adequate for PRB. No need for powder puff loads with your new rifle. You might consider buying Dutch's shooting system. A good rule of thumb for starting powder charges in rifles is the caliber multiplied by 1.5. Since you're using T7, which is slightly hotter, you might start a little lower than that. Maybe 70 grains...

Given your components, I'd look toward patch lube as your problem. You need a good slippery lube and a clean bore to start with. You might consider a liquid lube that will leave the patch a little more wet and it will help clean the bore as you seat the bullet, and make it slide down the barrel easier. Some of the pre lubed patches you buy just don't cut the mustard.

My experience with Investarms and TC rifles with a 1 in 48 twist barrel led me to use charges (2F Black Powder) in the 90-95 grain range. Clover leaf or ragged holes at 50 yards, and 2.5 to 3" at 100. As I age I find the type of target I use makes a big difference too! I concur with posts above that say there is a break-in period. That rifling is sharp. That also makes loading harder as well as cutting your patch.

Thanks to everybody for all the good suggestions and info. Just what I expected. Going to work on these variables and see how it goes. Part of the reason I got into the BP long arm fun was to try and meet the challenges involved.

1 in 48" is fine for both RB and Maxi ball. My TC would punch one hole with either at 50 yards. I used a 495" ball and a .010" to .015" patch. Maxi Ball was super. I used 90 gr of FFG with both. My .54 uses 100 gr of Pyrodex to 100 and 120 gr with a sight adjustment for 200 yards.
777 is very touchy and wants no compression at all, just touch it with the ball. Pyrodex needs just a tad compression and every shot needs the exact same amount. I made a tool to seat with a big spring to keep compression even. The tool is good with PB also. I don't know if I have a picture. I can't find it so will take another for you.